Do you have an anti-fragile relationship? feat. Candice Horbacz

[00:13:00] Have you ever wondered what a marriage contract actually means? Or how you go about creating an anti fragile relationship?

I'll bet you've never considered how your screen time might be ruining your love life. But these are just a few of the topics that my guest, Candace Horbach, a former porn star turned entrepreneur, wife and mom, and I get into later in this episode. Hello friends, future friends, haters, and ex lovers.

Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Uphold. And if you signed up for the mailing list and didn't get an email from me, check your spam. I will only be announcing giveaway winners via that email list. So if you don't check it and you win, you're going to miss out and I'm just going to move on to the next person.

All right, without further ado, let's talk to Candace. Welcome to Crimes of the Heart.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited to talk to you. I feel like you have a very unique perspective on the world [00:14:00] of love and sex.

I think so too, yeah.

So for those that don't know, you are a very successful... Adult entertainment, performer. I, I did a little, a little research and Pornhub says your profile has been visited 44 million times and you have 353 million video views.

That's wild.

I didn't know that. I didn't know that. That's a lot, yeah.

That's a lot. Yeah. So how did you get into the adult entertainment industry?

Slowly, um, I started with webcam modeling and very quickly realized that I did not have the right personality for it. You have to just be like very gracious you get a lot of commands and I'm like the type of person if you tell me to do something I do the opposite.

 And I knew that eventually I wanted to end up doing like the bigger films.

And you had Jesse Jane and Jenna Jameson and Tara Patrick and I said, I wanna be like these [00:15:00] women. They had figured out how to fully own their sexuality in a way that was kind of like a superpower. And at the time, I was very insecure.

So how old were you at this time?

My first film, I want to say I was 21, but I started webcamming when I was 19.

And if you're shy, what gets you into webcamming?

It seemed like a really safe place for me to come out of my shell, right? Like it's way harder, I think, to do it at a bar with like a real person in front of you or like take someone home. I hadn't been with very many people sexually speaking, so I wasn't ready to do that. And it just. It's a laptop and if I want to I can close it.

I had pretty much all of the control So just seemed safe and I started off implied so I wasn't even showing anything but it I felt So alive and I felt so in touch with my body for like the first time when I was practicing sensuality So again, like this is not explicit content. It was all all implied.

Nothing like no sexual acts it was [00:16:00] like teasing like Dita Von Teese like Seeing how slow you can go not trying to rush the process with anything and at that time any of the guys I had been With they were basically boys, right? Like when you're a teenager and like you're early 20s, like you're not really no one's grown up yet So I hadn't been taught sensuality.

I hadn't been taught pacing I hadn't been taught pleasure like everything was a means to an end and it's like how Can I get him off the fastest, right? Like, my pleasure was never prioritized. So it was the first time that I had, in my mind, a safe container to, like, start practicing and questioning a lot of things that I had been doing in my personal life.

 When I was 19, I had a record deal. We had, we had very different, uh, 19 year old experiences, so you started with Girl on Girl, and that just like felt safer,

Mm hmm

Do you remember your first day on set?

ever or with a with a man

With a

with a girl. Yeah, I do.

be ever? Were you just terrified?

mortified I had never been with a woman before so I was like, I don't know what I'm doing Like [00:17:00] I know what I enjoy so I guess I'll kind of go based off of that And I remember it was like the night before a few nights before I had my co stars Information I reached out to her and I was like hey and she was a huge name at the time like one of the biggest stars at the time and she Totally ignored me and I was like, okay.

Well, this is shitty And then we're getting makeup done Chair by chair and she's just being really cold and not interacting with me at all and I was just petrified and like she hates me She absolutely hates me and this is gonna be terrible and we didn't talk basically at all until we started filming and I was just And I guess that translated well because the scene did really well, but it wasn't, it definitely wasn't an ideal situation.

And I guess to give her credit, it's the average career span of any talent is like 6 months to 12 months. 12 months is on the higher end. So she probably sees young girls coming in and out, in and out, in and out. And unfortunately, Not necessarily the most professional [00:18:00] people come in, not the most together people come in.

So she's probably seen it all and doesn't know me. So to her, she's like protecting her space and her energy. And just, she's just there to do the scene where I am new and excited and have like no idea what I'm doing and looking for some kind of mentorship. And she just wasn't available for that.

So how long did you dabble in the girl on girl space?

Oh, man. it was a few years, actually. probably until I was 25? 24?

And that's when you started to do girly guy. What did you learn about yourself during that time? Because I think that there's like such an interesting, do you identify as being straight or do you identify as

Definitely straight. Mm hmm.

So what was it like being a straight woman, creating work with other women?

I think that women are, we're able to be a lot more fluid, I think that it's a lot easier for us to, like, see beauty and turn on in things than men [00:19:00] who have more of a rigid sense of sexuality. I think there's a lot less shame when it comes to women being with other women. It's seen as hot, it's not seen as embarrassing, whereas with men, if they were to do it and he's like, I'm straight, you'd be like, no, you're definitely not, right?

But for some reason, we allow women to kind of... exist in this gray space, and men just don't. So I think it's easier for a woman to do Like a lesbian scene if she's straight and it's a lot more difficult for a man to do it if he's straight So for me, it's just like I can see and appreciate Like a beautiful woman and I don't feel gross or icky or shameful. It's like, it's entertainment for me.

that's fascinating so then you Do this for a while and do you think it was a confidence thing or do you think it was I'm Committed to this lifestyle like I'm not Backing down. So I'm not going to be deleting these videos or kind of trying to, rid the internet of my presence that made you make the jump,

Well, there is no deleting [00:20:00] anything. So I think that's so important. It's this idea of anonymity or, and I guess even my naivete and thinking that if I had done just a girl, girl, that it would have been brushed under the rug and probably more socially acceptable, perhaps, but the more I think about it, it's.

I think once you kind of make that decision to take your clothes off, the people that are going to write you off are going to write you off no matter what. So it doesn't matter if you're by yourself with a woman or with a guy or with ten guys. I don't think it matters. I think that those people think that it is morally depraved and, you know, there's no convincing them and there's no conversation.

It's like their decision about who you are has been made up. , so I think that that would have happened. But, unfortunately, there's no... Companies that I know of to this day that are doing royalties that are offering, um, any sense of ownership over the content with the creator. So you do the scene for one pretty shitty paycheck and then it's out there forever.

So even if you have, a moment of clarity. You're like, what did I do? This wasn't what I wanted to do. I didn't enjoy it. I really regret that. this. There's no [00:21:00] recourse. Like you can't say, Hey, can I buy this scene back? Can I take this scene down? It doesn't work that way. So it's like that decision is permanent on the internet forever.

And that kind of sucks. Um, if you are someone that had a change of heart. But for me, It definitely wasn't sunken cost fallacy, right? It wasn't like I had spent so much time and it's already done, so now I gotta stick with it. Like, I really felt like that's where I was supposed to be at that time of my life.

How

I just, I feel like there are incalculable amounts of, like, little moments in our life that lead us to our path, right?

So if it's music or if it's porn, and that's going to sound crazy to some people, like you were made to do that, I think it was a really necessary part of my story. And I think, um, no matter what it is you decide to do or what struggles you decide To embark on because I think it's all a choice at the end of the day.

So it's like, what lessons did I feel? Or did my soul feel like I had to learn through this process? And it's definitely not been super easy, right? As I think you and probably a lot of people can imagine. There's been a [00:22:00] ton of hurdles that I self imposed from that decision. They want to say it's because your dad left. They want to say it was because society was hyper sexualizing women. That's just kind of lazy to me. I think that there's a whole bunch of reasons that led me to make that decision, and absolutely part of it was my conscious choice to do so, and my real curiosity around sexuality.

It's interesting. You said like people will. Right. You off regardless. And it's like, even with this podcast, I have felt that and it's wild. Cause I'm in a sweatshirt, you know, like I'm fully clothed, but I do think, man, the pushback around sex and pleasure, mostly pleasure over sex is, is really shocking.

Still in 2023.

Yeah, and you'll have people that, people, you'll have people that argue that there's no way we're sexually repressed because look at Instagram and how many women are posing on there and look at OnlyFans, but that's not, you're looking at the wrong thing. What you have to look back, look at is the pushback that those women are getting, right?

That's where the [00:23:00] repression is coming. The shame, like the, slut shaming, all of that. That's what you look at. If we didn't have sexually repressed people, there would be none of that. Pushback, right? Like they, you would just say, not for me, right? . But because we're meeting it with, like, you are no longer a high value woman. You're never gonna get married, you're never gonna have children, um, you are not making any money.

You just closed all these doors for no reason. You're a whore rightly. You just, you threw out your value. All of these things that you see on the internet.

But when you see all of these, like, red pill people, and they're like, oh, you're a low value woman, it's insane. One of my girlfriends, her name's Lena the Plug, her husband's Adam22, she, yeah, so her, are you kidding?

Like,

podcasts all the, yeah, all the things. Yeah.

Her decision to shoot for the very first time ever with another man. Meanwhile, he has been shooting with all these women the whole time, right? There's nothing. There's nothing. It's quiet. It's fine. The minute that she decides to sleep with one person outside of the marriage, even though he's been doing it for the scenes this whole time, [00:24:00] she's now being thrown as, like, low value.

She's a terrible mom. Someone needs to take her kid away. Like, the craziest shit you've ever seen. And then you see these tabloids. Putting her daughter's face on, um, on the front cover with her and the guy she did a scene with. And I'm like, you want to talk about outrage and what is morally depraved?

That is. Not her experiencing pleasure in a consenting way that she and her husband agreed upon. Like, you bringing a kid into this because you want to sell fucking cliques? That's disgusting.

That's

Yeah.

I don't even know how that is

I don't know how it's legal either. I would be trying to sue the pants off of everyone because it's a child. You don't have the right to monetize off of a child. Period.

No, you don't. And I also don't understand, like, if we go to a restaurant and you decide to get the steak and I don't eat meat... Am I gonna leave the restaurant? Am I gonna be like, uh, we need to start to attack Candace because I wanted the pasta and she's eating the steak? It's like, I don't [00:25:00]know. Why don't we just do our own fucking thing and enjoy the meal? And I, I do think it's like, you know, female pleasure is like one of the most threatening things on the planet.

Oh, absolutely.

So what are some of, I feel like we hear this a lot. Porn is not reality. How is shooting porn with a man and the creation of those scenes different than like, say sex with someone off camera?

I mean, it's entirely different. I mean, it's not to say that there weren't scenes that I enjoyed or that I actually was able to climax on because there were plenty. And, um, it's just to say, like, the priority is the product. It's not my pleasure in those contexts. So it's not like, I need to make sure I'm enjoying every single moment and that my, body is just like dancing with excitement the whole time.

It's like, no, I need to make sure my abs are, are popping. I need to make sure that I'm like arching my back and is my face doing the thing? Am I being too vocal? Not vocal? Like it's a lot of calibrating, like conscious calibrating to like make sure that you are perceived how you want to be perceived. Whereas, [00:26:00] hopefully, when you're having sex off camera, you're not worried about those things.

Like, you can just relax and soften into the moment and not worry, like, what's my belly doing or what's my butt doing as my back look. And I know that some women struggle with that, and they do do that, but I would highly encourage them not to do it because, like, he's already there, right? Like, you already have your person in the room.

You both already have your clothes off. Name a single time that a man was like, absolutely not, and walked out. It's never happened in the history of... of existence. So relax

and enjoy it. It's never ha I've never met a woman where that happened, so relax. You already did it. Have fun. That's what it's supposed to be about.

yeah, so hopefully one is just like a lot more surrendered and then the other one is a lot more meticulous.

And is it true that some of the fluid, some of all of that kind of stuff gets faked?

my god, all of the photos, it's Cetaphil. All the photos, it's Cetaphil. And it sucks because if you do like a cream pie shot, they were like[00:27:00]

Well, that's for the facial, yeah. It gets, like, everywhere and it'll burn and, um, it tastes terrible. It'll make your tongue go numb. At least it made my tongue go numb.

Um, they'll put it, like, in you, which I stopped letting them do because it's, like, terrible for your vagina. It's like, yeah, but it would burn. Um, but yeah, it's soap because it just real cum doesn't show up that well on camera and then you don't know how, like, how he's gonna finish, right? Like, some guys have bigger loads than

others.

and some don't. Yeah. Yeah.

Again, selling a product. So it's not about, it's not, so that even shows not even truly about like the guy's pleasure, cause there's sometimes where maybe he's not able to finish and they have to fake it. so it's like, how do I make the best product that's going to get the most views and sell the most memberships?

I'm so glad you said that. Cause I just feel like, it's definitely affected culture, And I would love your thoughts on kind of whether or not you think that there is a porn epidemic

Oh, man. So I guess you have to first define, like, what, what about it would you [00:28:00] define as being an epidemic? Like, is it the consumption or is it because they're trying to reenact scenes or, um, is it because it's, it's maybe taking away motivation for them to go find a woman in the real world because they're getting a quick release?

Like, is it all of it?

I think it's all of it.

I think that what you have happening is you have a lot of men that don't know where they belong.

They don't know what they're supposed to be doing. They don't know how they're supposed to be interacting with women because there's this Really fascinating study that recently came out and I'm not going to get the numbers exactly right. So I encourage people

to go check it out, but, um, it's something like if you look at Gen Z and you look at Millennials and you kind of group them together,

one third of the group says a man approaching a woman at any time is considered, for any reason, is considered harassment. And then you have 80 percent of the women, plus or minus, that want to be approached. And then you have a large chunk, I want to say it's like over half of the young men, that will not [00:29:00] approach because of that one third.

So we have these women that want to be treated in a way they want to be sought after and approached and wooed. But then you have these men that are terrified to do it because they don't wanna deal with any negative. repercussions.

So now if you're in a vulnerable position where you're supposed to be having sex, it's like, we've overdone the consent stuff in my mind to like, consent that I hear some young people doing is more than I've ever done on a set.

Right? So it's almost like you need to do paperwork before you have sex with someone, otherwise, like, who knows what, or, like, constantly checking in. Can my hand go here? Can my tongue go here? Can I hold you this way? Instead of just, like, relying on body language and nonverbal communication. So I think that's a lot

Well, part of that's also being so like on your cell phone,

so they've done studies where the more time you spend on your screen and this isn't just strictly to porn This is YouTube. This is tick tock Instagram, whatever the more time you spend on your screen the harder it is to read Nonverbal communication facial expressions body language that kind [00:30:00] of thing so you almost start to get symptoms of what looks like autistic behavior and Um, non autistic people. So the more that you spend time on a screen, the more you kind of assimilate that kind of behavior.

So if you have someone that is watching a ton of porn, just like if you had someone that was consuming a ton of social media or whatever it was, then they might not see that that woman is. Really uncomfortable with whatever it is you're doing and I say like it's obviously not a perfect solution And it's not easy because a lot of women don't like speaking up like it takes most women Like most women have to get to the point of like being incensed and enraged for them to say no.

Like it's very hard for most women to say no in like a calm way or just like out of general discomfort or just like no is a full sentence. It's very hard for women to do that. So women do need to take the responsibility that when you are in this vulnerable space, this dangerous, potentially dangerous space with someone new, you have to protect yourself because at the end of the day, it's no one else's responsibility.[00:31:00]

So you, if you, the guy is doing something that. He maybe isn't doing it out of malice, he's just doing it because he's ignorant, or like, not

Or he thinks you're going to

Right. It's, you have to be able to say no, so you have to practice your no's, and that is so important. And that's very different than someone who's a victim of sexual assault, like, that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about

Right. It's like, Oh, that's like, Oh, I'm not into spit, you know? yeah. Like, I don't want to be choked or

Exactly. Just say no.

I think like there's such a hot way to have that conversation before you have sex or while you're having sex.

Like it doesn't have to be so

exactly. Yes. It doesn't have to be this. Like, do you consent to me putting my hand on your ass or like, you know, why is it? That's not hot, but being like, are you into being spanked or like, have you been a good girl? Whatever it is, like there's a way to make it

hot and then it's not that weird.

So on the flip side and kind of in line with that, I'm really interested to hear how you think porn can help couples in [00:32:00] relationships

So I think that, like one of the more obvious things for me is that our sex drives tend to be very different when you talk about men and women. I was listening to this, um, OB talk and she was saying in that when you're in your.

Fertile window it's like the closest glimpse that you have into male, male sexuality of what they experience every single day.

So for me, I am like insatiable during that window. Like there is just like not enough, but the rest of the month I could go without, if I'm being honest. It's just like my drive's not. anywhere near my husband's. So when I was doing this exercise, I was like, man, if this is even a fraction of what he's experiencing every day, no wonder, like, he's always groping me in the kitchen and whatever, like, he's, he got a lot going on.

so because of that discrepancy in our, like, sexual drive, I think it's a really great way for them to be able to have their release, and like, you not feeling obligated to meet every single time that, like, they want sex, right? Because then that can also be an argument. It's like, Ugh, not again, or I'm so tired, or I have a [00:33:00] headache, right?

We come up with reasons, and some of them are real, and some of them are contrived, um, as to why we don't want to have I'm bloated. I just ate pizza. Whatever the reason. And then He's allowed to go relieve himself. I'm not gonna yell at him, or embarrass him, or shame him. Like, good! That's one less time that I don't have to do it if I don't want to put in the effort.

so I think that's one good use of it. And some people are like, oh, it's cheating. Well, it's like, well, if it's not you, he's gonna find a a different method. So you either want honesty within the relationship or he's going to have to feel like he's lying to his mom because it's an argument. so that's one tool.

I think another one is like a, it's a really cool way to get, creative. I think when you're with someone for a very long time, you can get into the habit and it's like very robotic and you're like, okay, we're going to do this position for three minutes and then this one for a minute and then we both finish at exactly the same time and we're done in less than five minutes.

 Like, it's great, you both had an orgasm, that's awesome, but did you really connect? were you in the moment? And I think it's a good way to break you out of your routine. maybe [00:34:00] you, I don't know, like, maybe you don't have, like, a lot of creative ideas as to, like, what you could bring into the bedroom as far as, um, playfulness and it could be roleplaying, it could be outfits, it could be scenarios, it could be positions.

It just could be a really good way for you to bring nuance into that container without bringing in another person. So, um, I don't know, I think it can be really beneficial if it's used the right way. It's a tool.

It's certainly not a replacement for a living, breathing human, but it can be used for entertainment and inspiration and just pure utility if, like, you don't have a partner available and you want some kind of stimulation.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't. I think we've demonized sex work in a way that is. It's super weird, so I'm not of the mind that it is cheating, or any of that, so it's really hard for me to understand that logic, because I'm also like, these people are at work, this idea that you think that,

We're gonna come steal your husband.

I don't think

Like, I don't even know who he

is. You were just talking about all the views I had [00:35:00] on my profile. I don't know any of them. You know what I mean? That intimacy

goes one way.

yeah, I know, I heard you once say, um, that you think porn is like an amplifier, what does that mean,

my goodness. Um, well for me, I would say it like brings out people's like real... Insecurities, like real shadows come out, right, and it's immediately trying to, exile me from the community, or I'm immediately like a bad person, don't do business.

a bad mom, right? It's like, it's a way to put me in a bucket that, that confirms, like, their, their narrative that they don't even know why they have half of the time.

So if you have someone who's open minded, who's curious, who's empathetic, Who does like a lot of mindfulness, like they focus a lot on themself, or like maybe they're like a very stoic sense, like they're not gonna get triggered by me. But if you have a lot of insecurity, if you feel that your relationship is unstable, if you aren't connected with your sexuality, like I bring all of that.[00:36:00]

Out of view. And then instead again, like we talked about earlier in the conversation, instead of going inward and saying, okay, well, why is this there? What can I do with it? It's like, she's immediately the problem. And that's the easiest way to handle it, right? It's to other the other person instead of looking at yourself.

it's interesting. I saw, I read that you worked with reality Kings. and the guy that I'm dating right now, that was like his first job too. Um, and he's a, he's a retired performer and it's been very interesting to see who bristles at that.

Mm hmm.

Even people that think that they're woke or whatever.

And it's like, but you can tell that they're like, Ooh, okay. And it's just, it's, it's very telling. I don't understand. It's a job. It's also like. He's hot and he can fuck like, I don't, I don't, I mean, that's what's out there. You know what I mean? Like this is somebody that's really good at what he does.

Good for you!

Thank you. Yes. It's, it's been a, let [00:37:00] me, let me just say that some performers are really, really good at what they do.

there's a reason why they're there.

Yes. Yes, truly. is also super kind and really great with consent and, sexual health and all of those things that aren't always the norm with people that didn't do sex work, you know? But it's just been really interesting, even amongst my friend group. to see how people respond.

And if they think that I can't tell that there is judgment there, I can, I can always tell. I just don't react, but I've clocked it. I'm aware even with my friends that I perceive to be close friends. And it's a bummer because it's now given me information about who you really are. every now and then, I have felt like.

Like a pang of shame and then I realize, whoa, this is not my shame. Why am I taking this on? And I quickly drop it because I wake up and I don't care. You know what I mean? Like this is not something that bothers me at [00:38:00] all. I'm only reaping the benefits of this multiple, multiple times, but I can only imagine.

What it's been like for you? Because also, like we just said the double standard for female performers is also just so much greater.

Oh, it is. Yeah. I think it's a lot easier. It's really funny. There's this one guy, um, his name's Sterling Cooper. I don't know if you're familiar with him. Yeah. So he is super popular amongst the red pillars, which I find so interesting. so he, he like is trying to like teach these men how to be high value, how to satisfy your woman, how to be like,

The value thing is so,

like, who's,

giving slavery.

it's like, who, who's assigning the value?

Like, why are, why are we assuming that that's universal? And what you value in a life partner is going to be the same as what I value in a life partner. We're all so different. So to think that you can slap on five bullet points and you're going to be figured out is very misleading. But, um, [00:39:00]he's super popular.

And I, I'm watching it from afar and I think it's Good? Because he's like, it seems stealth that he's introducing sexuality to that group. However, it's the same people that would immediately just like, shut down a woman for any of the same stuff. And then we have this idea that, well, it's different.

Men are supposed to spread their seed. Well, And they use, they try to use like really bro, like a lot of bro science to justify their inadequacies to use their frontal lobe. So it's like, Oh no, this is, this is evolution and this is why I do it. When the, like the reality is, is there's really convincing data that women also weren't supposed to be monogamous and that we were supposed to move on.

Because if you have a woman that's ovulating, if you've already had a child with somebody. What you're gonna try, what you're gonna tend to find out is during that fertile window, you're gonna fucking hate them. You're gonna start arguments. You're gonna be like, this person sucks. Why do you chew your food this way?

And you're gonna be like lusting after other men, even if it's just in [00:40:00] your mind because it's, it's biology's way of saying, okay, you already did it with this one person. We need like variety and diversity out there. So you need to go find somebody else. And furthermore, if you do take the next step to cheat on that person and sleep with someone else during that fertile window, you are three times more likely to get pregnant by the other man than by the person you've already had a baby with.

So

That's crazy. I

it is crazy. It's in, um, a billion wicked, a billion wicked thoughts, which is an. highly recommended book. It's one of my favorite books of all time. and there's just like a lot of data and science and they took like the largest sample size of, um, like sex related content and break down a whole bunch of like myths and stereotypes and whatever.

But... So, okay, I'm also not wired to be monogamous and, quote, spread my seed and whatever and like have a whole bunch of different babies. Women, we are the only creature that has an organ that is strictly for pleasure. And yet you're going to say that women don't want sex. Women don't want pleasure. It's only men.

They don't have anything on their body that is strictly just [00:41:00] for pleasure, right? Like, their penis, it pees, like, right? They urinate out of it, um, and then they can also ejaculate out of it. There's no other function of the clit. other than to have a great time. So don't tell me that women aren't supposed to have pleasure, aren't supposed to want sex, like we just want to settle down. Like, look at a woman's body. We were created to enjoy sex.

That is, man, fascinating. And I really, I really hope Sterling is fighting the

good fight.

so. I mean, I hope I'm not

wrong. I hope I'm not wrong about him.

Me too. Me too. so. You've said that you have an anti fragile relationship with your husband. And part of that had to do with your work as a sex worker. Can you explain like how. Being in porn has led to you being in a marriage that you would classify as anti fragile.

So my recollection of the definition of anti fragile is basically instead of something like an opposing force breaking something, right, even something that's very strong can break, but if you have something that's [00:42:00] anti fragile, it literally takes on the energy of that opposition and becomes stronger.

It's almost like that whole forged in the fire saying. So, Because of my decision to get into porn and to get into porn while I was engaged to my now husband, it makes you,

Oh wow, I did not realize that. Oh my gosh, what an interesting, uh,

was definitely risky. Yeah. It was super, super risky looking back at like, because no one knew how anyone was going to react, right?

Like his feelings are all valid and his reactions would have been all valid. So, I took like a huge, we took a huge gamble with that decision.

Yeah, it says just as much about him.

oh, for. Oh, for sure. Like, he's incredible. Like, I couldn't picture up, like, a better person ever to, like, grow a life with. But it's like the, it's the idea that like a lot of people and myself included prior to like being in a relationship with him it's we avoid pain.

We're either like chasing pleasure or running away from pain and very rarely, it takes like a very, very [00:43:00] specific type of person that does a lot of like personal development that is like very resilient that looks at pain and examines it and understands, like, why is this here and how can I transform it?

Do I want to, keep this, narrative, this story, or do I want to evolve it into something else? Like, really taking true ownership of your life instead of, going with, The prescribed, like the original operating system, right? Like you get a phone and it has all of the stuff on it. And I think people are very similar.

It's like how we were raised, our culture, where we grew up, yada, yada. Like we have all of these things that kind of pose as our real self and our real belief systems, but if they're unexamined, they're probably not. Um, so we go through life and we go through relationship, not examining anything and actually running away from anything uncomfortable and we go along to get along and.

This is good enough, and you know, there's not enough spark, or there's not enough romance, or I could never tell her that she would blow up. I could never tell him that. He wouldn't understand me. whatever it was, like, there's not real trust, and if you don't have, like, this [00:44:00] radical honesty within that relationship, you're not in a real relationship, right?

Like, you both are operating based off of who the other person thinks that you are, and then the moment that that veil is lifted is when the relationship becomes vulnerable, because you're like, wait. I didn't know that that's what you thought or that's what you wanted or, right? It's, it becomes kind of like a shell shock.

Whereas with this, there's no hiding from it. I made a decision that the world can now Google. his family and friends had a lot to say. My friends and family had a lot. to say, like, there is no escaping it. So at that point, you have the decision, and it goes back to porn being an amplifier and getting into it.

It's like you have the decision to run away or to go in. And we decided to go in and examine and it's like, why am I jealous? Why are you jealous? Why do I feel shame? Why do you feel shame? Why do I feel like I need to live my life for anyone else but myself and for you and like our decisions as a couple moving forward and what we want for our future?

No one else has to pay the price for my choices. No one else has to live my life. But, I guess going back to the anti fragile bit, [00:45:00] it's just the idea of we went through so many extremes because of that decision.

And we are so much stronger for it because we didn't bullshit each other. We were super honest. How did this make you feel? What do you want to do next? How do you want to evolve yourself, myself, the relationship? and it's like, we've already been through that. So there's zero reality. You could even take like the multiverse.

There is zero universe where someone sleeps with someone and it destroys our family and it destroys our union because we've already done it. And we've already reckoned with what does that mean for us? What does that mean for the relationship? Is a marriage strictly, a contract saying that neither of us sleep with another person?

Or is marriage something much different? Is union something much different? Is, is our union and our bond only significant as long as we're having sex, if you're putting such an emphasis on, on sex? so we've gone through a lot because of that decision. And I just feel like both of us are now trained to like go deeper with each other.

And we both have the goal of Growing old [00:46:00] together. So there is no like backing out running away from pain. It's like we're gonna run through this the storm together

Yeah, together. It sounds like you have a very bespoke relationship, and I

think that that's... Because I love what you said about like, so is our marriage defined on sex? Because when you think about how most people think of a marriage, it's, you know, a contract, it's no cheating. and cheating is generally.

Defined by sex. For somebody listening that might not be in your exact circumstances, but has something that they really want to talk to their partner or their fiance or their husband about, how do you approach having one of those honest conversations or starting to train to go deeper?

have this Misunderstanding that men are shallow and men don't have feelings and men are busy and they can't be bothered with whatever You know frivolous or neurotic thought we have I think we Like that's a lie that we've kind of been told, I think if [00:47:00] you approach it with like softness and you approach it with what, like, keep in mind what is your end goal is like your end goal to end up together or is your, or is this like a conversation about like separating, right?

But if your goal is union. And whatever that looks like for you, to figure it out together, then, like, realize he's your teammate. Like, he adores you, he loves you, he wants to provide for you in whatever way that providing looks like, right? I I hate the idea that provision is, like, strictly financial. I think that's a trap.

but, like, men

want to, like, right, it goes so much deeper and it's so much more meaningful than providing money. It's, like, men want to be there for you. So remember,

Yes. It's also, that is so tied to like, The quote unquote rules, the seventies and eighties when men couldn't have a credit card without their husbands. So it was truly like we were trading sex for money. And I really do think that, God, we have to be, we have to be beyond that.

No, for sure. And then you also have like these men that think that's as long as I do that then I'm fulfilling my duties and then they spend more and more time outside of the home and feel [00:48:00]alienated and then they feel isolated and like separated from the family. so no one's winning in that scenario.

Certainly not men and certainly not their families. but like, I think you have to get yourself first. It's like setting that. That space for the, for the conversation. So you don't want to go in with accusations, you don't want to go in hot, like, you want to go in soft, surrendered, clear, like you have clarity on what it is that you want for you and for the relationship, and give him time to answer.

And this is going to sound crazy, but If you ask, first of all, like men have what they call like single focus and some of it has to do with the testosterone in the brain. So, um, if he's in the middle of doing something, he's not ignoring you. It's just like his wiring, like he's already doing something and he needs to get it done.

And he literally doesn't hear you. It's not he's ignoring you. Like he physically is not hearing you right now. So make sure he's available. Right? And if he's in the middle of something like is now a good time, or can we do something later, like schedule it if you need to, so like set him up for success, set yourself up for success.

So creating the space, I think, is really important. And then after he.

I must also be kind [00:49:00] of, man, because I do the same thing. I'm like, I'll have conversations with people and then they'll mention it. And I'm like, Oh shit, I was doing something else. I have no idea what we

Yeah, and you might have more, a little bit more testosterone than some women, right? Like, are, yeah. So it's very possible, or maybe you're in, like, you're masculine while you're doing something, because obviously, like, you have your own business. So maybe you're in that space, that energetic space. So that's what's happening, right?

Like, your chemi Chemistry can be different. so like set up everything for success and like know what it is that you're like, why you're doing what you're doing and why you want that, like the goal of the conversation. And then when you ask the question, you want to count to up to, I think it's like 25 before you talk again, it can take and sometimes longer.

So you have to also like be feeling the situation. So a lot of men need a lot of time because they're not, they're not conditioned to be able to express themselves, right? Like it's shut down a lot. So if they're boys, don't cry, right? Boys don't have feelings all of these bullshit things that we have like raised our young boys on that needs to get fixed.

So because of that, it takes them a little bit longer [00:50:00] to like dig deep and feel like this is a safe place for me to express myself. So if you count to like the mid to upper twenties, Without saying anything, like again, soften, body language is so important. I guarantee you're going to get gold. And every time you want to do that, like you don't want to cut him off while he's talking.

You don't want to like create a sense of urgency. You want to create like a very soft, tranquil space where he can just like tell you everything and answer whatever questions or problems or whatever it is. yeah, I think that's a lot of it. And I was so guilty of like constantly cutting my husband off or like I'm not giving him time to answer, but I did an experiment the other day, because I'm like, there's just no way.

There's just no way that this is true. So we're in the car, and I just didn't say, I said something, and then I stopped. And I didn't say anything, and I started counting, and I think I got to like 17. And then he started talking. And then he talked. And like, it was different cadences. Like, he would talk, and then there would be a break, and I'd start counting again, and I'd get to like 12, and then he'd start talking again.

This went on for 15 minutes before I said anything. Anything. Like, he had a lot to say. And [00:51:00] typically, I would have said... this is what I think. Oh, well, this is what I, uh, let me share, right? And like, I want to participate in this conversation, but our communication styles are so different. So if you give them space and time, they'll tell you when they're done.

They'll be like, okay. And yeah, that's about it. Or like, they'll kind of leave it open like that, and then you can come in. But it's a very different way to have a conversation.

I love that. You know, I've, I've heard an iteration of that. and I think that I sort of naturally do that. I also like to try and have touch in those conversations. It doesn't have to be the whole time, but like, I do think there's something about. Entering into a potentially heated or emotionally charged conversation with trying to put defenses down and making sure that your tone is clear and that you're breathing because the second somebody feels attacked, the chemicals in their brain make it hard to process new information.

So then they're not even hearing you like literally, they can't even hear you. So the counting thing is, is fascinating. And I love that. this has been. incredible conversation. I'm so honored that we got to do [00:52:00] this. I ask all of my guests this, what is the greatest love or dating advice you've ever received?

I'm gonna mess this up a little bit, but for me, it's, it's like probably like the most alive, I think. So we recently had our second child and I think any parent knows like that just shakes things up, right? One, two, however many you have, like every time you have a kid, it's just like. everything kind of goes upside down and you're like reestablishing what the family looks like and finding yourself again, especially, you know, as a woman going through that healing process, it's a lot.

and I think it's very easy to get caught in the lows during that stage. So we kind of exist on this, this serpentine pattern. So we have like these highs and then these lows and these highs and these lows and wherever you currently find yourself, that's your perspective. And that's what you see.

So if you're in a low place, all it takes is like your ability to register. I'm in a low place. Then you have to tell yourself. Everything I'm perceiving right now is probably bullshit, right? I only [00:53:00] have the frequency that I'm existing in and right now that's pretty low. So if I'm like being like, he's a shitty husband.

He's not paying attention to me. Why is this house a mess? Why is my toddler screaming, right? It's so easy to, to see all of the negative but that's because that's where you are. If you were at the peak, Then you wouldn't be noticing any of that. So I think it's really important to constantly calibrate where you are so that you have an honest examination of like of your life and you're not blaming other people for where you are at.

And I think, the reason that that's so powerful is especially during the early stages of motherhood, it's like you need your partner. You need your husband so bad in those moments. And sometimes the easiest thing is to. You can't just, like, push them away, and to, like, blame them for a lot of the stuff that you're going through.

So if you can register, like, no, I'm just feeling really low. Like, my hormones are fucking crazy. I'm exhausted. I'm, like, nutrient depleted. I'm sleep deprived. Like, all of these things. Then you can take a breath and say, like, love, I need help. Like, I need your help. And then it brings you into this [00:54:00] other, this place of team, teamwork and unity instead of division.

so for me, that's probably the, the most, like, alive piece of advice that I've had.

I love that. I don't normally ask this, but do you have a sex tip?

A sex tip. Yes.

I mean, since we have, you know, one of the top professionals here, might as

Um, one of my favorite things and like, I apologize if anyone's heard me say this before, but I say it all the time because I just like so firmly believe in this practice. if you feel like you're in a place where Like, you're not as alive in that realm or you don't feel as connected as you know that you can be or you're lacking creativity or spunk or whatever, it's to have a date night at home and like have some drinks, like set up some candles, get cozy.

Each of you gets a notebook and it's called the sexual buffet, like, or like you can call it like the intimacy buffet. And what you want to do is you list out every single thing you want to try, whether it's Outfit, whether it's like a sex act, whether it's like playing with strawberries [00:55:00] and chocolate or like get as creative as you want and just know at the end the exercise is to switch notebooks And it can be really scary because you're like, I don't want them to judge what my kink You have to go into it knowing like it's judgment free.

It's not about jealousy. Like this is just This is play. This is fun. This is learning new levels of your partner. So after you switch notebooks, one of the most beautiful things that I think usually happens is there's so much crossover and it's like the thing that you thought was going to get picked on.

Like he's going to, if I want him to spank me, he's going to make fun of me. And you realize like he wants to do that too. Like he has this whole like scenario and like, Oh my gosh, I didn't know you wanted to do that. So then like there's like this really playful new connection that's made and then what you can do is to take these ideas and put them in a jar and maybe like one date night he gets to pick, one date night you get to pick, and then you now have all of these options at the tips of your fingers as to how to to like reignite that spark between the two of you.

And it just brings like this new playfulness that [00:56:00] maybe has gotten stagnant in a way because you are going to be a little bit shy and a little bit nervous and like giddy and that's exciting and that's fun and uh, it's possible to have all of those butterflies even after a decade with someone if you do this exercise.

Candace, I'm obsessed with this. I have not heard this before and I'm

Oh, I'm so glad. Yeah. Yeah. It's my

I love that because it's also like when you go to pick something out of that jar, you're immediately going to remember the first night that you guys wrote this. So it's just anchored in a moment that is joyful and fun and already is going to be like, tingly and salacious.

And so I think that that is so genius and I've never

Oh, awesome. Yeah. I love it so much. It's my number one tip because if you're shy too and communication is a little bit tricky, you don't really have to do a lot of talking because it's writing.

Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So if people want more from you, like more tips like that, how do they find you? How do they listen to you? Please like, let us

so all of my socials are Candace Horbach and then [00:57:00] the podcast is everywhere. You get podcasts, YouTube, Rumble, all of that, or chattingwithcandace. com.

And I will link to all of those below in the show notes

so that, um, people can easily find you. Thank you. This has been incredible.

time. Yes. Thank you so much.