Asexuality, in the city of Love with Aline

Hello, friends, future friends, haters, and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rachel. Rory Uphold. And before we get into today's episode, I wanted to announce the winners of the GEMS giveaway. Last week, I interviewed the co founders of GEMS, a non toxic condom company made for everybody, and they were so generous, they donated a bunch of product for me to give away to listeners.

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I found myself listening to a podcast called Free From Desire, Asexual in the City of Love. That city is Paris and the asexual in question is a journalist and author now turned podcaster named Aline. I was so moved by their story that I reached out and asked if they would come on this show and I'm so grateful that they said yes.

Two terms you're going to need to know going into this episode is that ace means asexual. Aloe means those that do not identify as asexual. So I would be considered aloe. Like many things, Asexuality is a spectrum. I learned a lot during this episode, and it means a lot to me because I think that while I spend a lot of time trying to make people feel comfortable in their romantic failures, the nightmare that is dating these days, and the minefield that modern sex is, is.

I think an important part of the conversation is missing, and it's that sex positivity should also include not having sex. I think we're in such a hyper sexualized world that sometimes we forget to include those that don't always have the same type of desire. That don't feel attraction. Sexual attraction, or it's inconsistent. 

And the more that I talk to people on this show, the more I realize the same societal norms that hurt women also hurt men. They hurt straight people, gay people, asexual people, non binary people.

And I don't know what the answer is, but I do think the more we begin to look at ourselves and break down our own preconceived notions. 

So I was really excited to talk to today's guest, and I'm going to link to their podcast if you're at all interested in learning more about this topic. It fascinated me, so it wouldn't surprise me if listeners to this show would also be fascinated by it. So without further ado, let's meet Aline.

Welcome to Crimes of the Heart. Hello. would you please just introduce yourself to the audience? Sure. My name is Aline Laurent Meyer, which sounds very French because I'm French. Uh, I'm a, I'm an author of books and podcasts and my first podcast in English is being released right now. and it's called free from desire.

is sexual in the city of love. Yes. Which is also the podcast. Yes. And for anybody that's listening, could you define what asexual means? Sure. Asexual is a person who has little to no sexual attraction. So not sexual desire, but attraction. So like your sexual desire is not aimed at someone or rarely aimed at someone or like in certain circumstances, like it's a spectrum, like many, most things. Yes, of course. Of course. I always thought that attraction was like the thing that you had with a person, and then desire was like wanting that from the person, but you're kind of saying that attraction and desire are not the same thing. 

The main thing about asexuality that people need to understand is that there's a difference between sexual attraction and Desire and libido. What is that?

 The libido the sexual desire is something that comes within or that you you know, it's an answer to stimuli and sexual attraction is this libido, this sexual desire aimed at

 Uh, it's weird to do all those interviews in English because like I. The rest of the day, I don't speak English. And suddenly I'm like, okay, go into English mode and find words that are very precise. 

I mean, I speak fluent fuck boy and like idiot, but you know, outside of that, I only speak English, so you're a rock star. The fact that you can do, if I had to do this in French, the interview would be silent. Sure, .

So going back to your question, we think that some things are good together when they don't. Like we think that sexual attraction, sexual, uh, romantic attraction, uh, sexual desire, they all go together because we don't want to see that, that, that the model we, built for ourselves right now, which is, you know, like the monogamous, uh, romantic couple who wants to have sex all the time.

You know, that's actually a social construct and we don't want to talk about it. So we tend to just like mix all of these things together, but no, like. 

And that was one of the things that I found the most interesting coming, like realizing that I was asexual and realizing that I was also aromantic, which is the equivalent before romantic attraction is that once I got the tools, I look back at my life and I was like, wow, all those times when you thought you were sexually attracted or romantically attracted to someone, you actually weren't like, and this is something that I.

Talk about in the podcast. I remember just like realizing that I was aromantic at some and it was like you never actually had a crush All the time that all the times that you thought you had a crush you actually had something else like wanting to be friend with someone being impressed with by someone all of the things and Sexual desire to like I was like no But sometimes I do want to have like I am attracted to someone sexually and if I look back It's like it was maybe that you know The ambiance, you know, like that it was like a sexy like a sexy setting, you know Like it was like a party was like a lots of very sexual dancers You know what?

I mean, and that's mostly what got me all, you know, horny I guess, you know it's just I remember breaking up with my first boyfriend and that was the first time that I've actually wanted to have sex with him and that was Basically because we were just like the tension of like breaking up. So yeah, we tend to confuse all of that.

But like most of the time when we're horny, it's not it's not aimed at someone. It's like you wake up and you actually have no idea why you're horny, you know? Sometimes when you have a menstrual cycle, it's just the time of the month, you've got fluctuations and it's just your body telling you, uh, you can go and have babies if you want to.

Yeah. You said something in your show about how. Well, so specifically you are the type of asexual that has some desire. Like it is a spectrum. There are people that feel absolutely none. And then there are people that feel a lot and we can get into that. But that you realized through like trial and error, masturbation, all of these different things that you're very linked with your cycle.

And I've spoken about that. For me personally, it's really hard for me to come right before my period. And yeah, just, these are just things that I've like kind of just realized. so I found that really fascinating that for you, you also noticed , rhythms that have to do with your menstrual cycle.

Yeah, no, definitely. Like, uh, if I'm not in this, uh, fertility, time span, you know, like I wanted to, I just couldn't feel any sexual desire. And I think. If you take, like, the, the entire population, I think everybody has fluctuations in their sexual desires and you have, like, people who have more sexual desires than others in the asexual community and in the allosexual community, so anyone who's not ace, so for me, yes, it's like, it's very little sexual attraction, but I know that I do feel it sometimes.

 And. I've talked to asexual people who, ace people who just never feel anything, like ever, and are actually, sex repulsed. So for them it's like, it's not quite, it's not really clear, like, why they're sex repulsed. For some, they say it's a result of... The pressure that has been put on me to have sex or like it's because I forced myself but so you've got some people that are sexually repulsed either from early on or as a result of things that happened in the lives, you have people who actually love sex.

Uh, and it's interesting because, I interviewed three ace people with different, very different sex life. And one of them just masturbates at least once a day. And he's very, She's a very sexual person and like she like sometimes she can flirt like this is not something we put into the podcast but sometimes she can like flirt and get aroused by the flirting and Then she told me the story that once she got so aroused that she went back to her car and masturbated in her car and then got back in to the party after that but like her arousal from that situation of being flirted It's, it's not something that's linked to the person in front.

It's just, you know, it's just what's happening, the vibe rather than the person. And so she does not want to act on it with someone. That's so fascinating. Yeah. The idea that you can be hypersexual. But that it's all in her mind or situational and has nothing to do with a specific person is truly, like, amazing.

And then on the flip side, there was someone who I thought described this so well for somebody that I would... Put myself in the aloe category, that watching porn, for example, or watching a sex scene in a movie is the equivalent of watching a comic sort of bomb on stage. I love this. To her, it's just like cringy.

And I was like, Oh my God, like, cause I, that's one of my, there are a lot of things that I can live through, but watching a comic die on stage is so, that's my nails on a chalkboard. So when she said that, I felt that, I was like, damn, okay, yeah. Yeah, no, definitely, like, I could never watch porn. Like I remember, I remember when I was in high school, I talked a lot about being in high school in this, in this show, because I think that's when we interiorized so many of the sexual scripts and so many of the things that we're gonna, like for ten to maybe 60 years after that, we're going to just.

Act and feel based on what we learned during high school or maybe mid middle school, you know, and I remember that people were like very intrigued that I was not watching porn and that was, that was, wait, that was 20 years ago. So that was way before like mainstream porn porn like it is now. So I can't imagine what it's like now.

But so people were really intrigued that I was not watching porn. And I remember that friend of mine just. It's sending me a link, but like sort of like not telling me what it was. And suddenly I was on that website and I felt so uncomfortable and it's not like I disapprove it because as I mentioned in the podcast, one of the really weird thing for me in high school was that I saw myself as a very.

Free spirited person like in my heart. I was a hippie. My favorite movie was hair I was really like I wanted a I wanted to live in a throuple even before we use that word I was like, I don't understand why everybody think I'm so stuck up because like I'm the freest of All of those people. I was like, you know, I was queer before I had the word and the tools and everything.

And so it was really weird to me, but anyway, so it was not because I was judging on the porn or anything. It's just my physical reaction was like, yuck, like, what is this? It just didn't make any sense to me. And I tried once, you know, to way later on to watch like a feminist porn. And I still have the same reaction of like, why am I on that website?

It just doesn't make any sense to me. And it's not making me feel anything other than uncomfortable and awkwardness. You know, it's just like, it's not for me, but so many people just love it. So, you know. So, okay, I have a question, and then I have a question about my question, because I'm going to ask the, well, I'm going to ask the question, and then I, what I want to know is like, is this question problematic?

I love deciding what's problematic or not. Love. I'm great. Problematic Bollies. So, is asexuality something that is more biological or is it more psychological? And do you see why asking that question might also be problematic? Yeah, definitely. It is a question that I hear slash read a lot.

Uh, and... I think just replace ace by gay and, or trans, and then you see that this question is problematic. I mean, some LGBTQI plus people want to know, like, they'd like to have answers to those questions. And I think it's a dead end. Like, Maybe one day we'll figure out the why, but like, do we really want to know why?

Like, the people that have done the most research about it were the Nazis. I think, you know, it's, it says all, Most of the people who try to find why people were queer did it because they wanted to fix us. And so... Getting to understand the why would kind of like could be used to fix us or to say here We know why so it means that it can be another way and I I remember talking with Angela Chen and I love her.

She wrote an amazing book called ace Simple title Very powerful. Uh, and I really highly recommend anyone to read it because she talks about a lot of things, but mostly, she says that. She doesn't really like when people say, I haven't chosen it.

Like this whole argument that I was born this way. And she says, well, maybe we need to get away from this argument because we could also choose it. 

 If asexuality or homosexuality or anything, you know, is not less valid than heterosexuality, then there would be no problem choosing it.

I have to say, I grew up ace. and my... Identity is so linked to all those experiences in my life and the way that I was ostracized and the way that I was made, um, to feel, like different, yeah, different, broken, all of that.

My only experience with, um, lack of attraction or desire or libido was a hormonal thing that happened to me that I've spoken about on this show before. And it was temporary, but it was terrifying. And I'm wondering now, what do you think, allo people, or myself, could have learned from ace people?

I think one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about asexuality was like, providing tools and knowledge to ace people. Because there are so many ace people, like most, like. Most ace people don't even realize they're ace because we don't have the framework to like, think about non sexual attraction.

But one of the other reason why I wanted to talk about that is that I think a lot of people experiences, times when they feel like they don't desire enough sexually, where they're not in sync with their partner. And I do truly think we need to stop thinking that everybody should have sex three times a week with one partner and that everybody should masturbate.

We need to stop thinking that everybody has the same sex life and the same sex desire and sexual attraction and that Our sexual drive is gonna be the same throughout her life. Like, it's not how it happens. And I completely understand how it must be so frightening, first off, to see your body change so suddenly. You went from like being in the normal category of people in this society to like the one that are like broken and that must feel so weird and also, uh, what you had that I don't have is like probably you were missing it, which like I'm not missing it because I never experienced sexual attraction.

So like, yeah. It's not something that I miss. It's not, you know, sometimes people say, especially if they have like a hormonal, hormonal issues, they would say like, I want to fuck so bad, but like, I can't anymore. And I can understand how it must be very. Yeah, it was terrifying.

I had to deal with a lot of issues, like mentally, but also physically. And then navigating that with my partner was really, really, really rough. but I think like something that you said that resonates with me is that we kind of hold this like cis hetero relationship as the gold standard that is like constantly fucking.

And we've seen that. In media books, the whole, you know, billion dollar industry around dating and relationships. So then if at any point, you don't feel like you are this person that is so driven to have sex, then somehow there is something that is quote unquote wrong with you.

Yeah. And we've like created this whole structure where that's really kind of excluded a lot of people, because I think while we don't know what the numbers are, it does seem like the asexual population is quite larger than previously represented, which like, I think it was like from 1995 or something and the stat was like 1% and it was only in like Britain it drives me mad every time I go talk about asexuality and people like. Like 1% of the global population. I'm like, no, no. You're like, you're talking about a number of first off that comes from like a, an old survey. But also if I was in that survey, I would have say, yeah, sure.

I've. I experienced sexual attraction because again, I didn't even think that it was possible not to feel sexual attraction because we talk about it so often that I thought I had to, like, I was like, maybe I can't read it. Maybe something is broken like it's a compass and I. My, my compass is broken and like, I feel sexual attraction, but I don't know when or where maybe it's just going to, like, maybe I'm late.

It's going to come later on. Maybe I need to like, um, switch it on, like have sex and then like, it's, it's going to ignite something. Uh, but like, it never occurred to me for so many, so many years that I could just not feel sexual attraction. I would just, didn't have the concept, I didn't have the, the, my mind was just not wired to think like that, which is very interesting.

And I hear people all the time telling me that they finally realized that they were ace, and like, that they were experiencing sexual, sexual attraction differently than other people. The fact that more and more people identify as LGBTQ because They had all those tools to think about their sexual lives, their sexual attraction, their romantic attraction, and they have the time, they don't have the shame anymore.

So they can think about it and take the time to really get to know themselves. And we see that the numbers of people identifying as LGBTQ plus is skyrocketing. 

And I have a lot of people coming to me, especially now, because in France, the podcast has been out for a year and a half. And I have people lately, a lot of people lately coming to me and saying, I'm finally listening to it. Like I've heard of it since it was released, but I, I didn't have it in me to confront myself. Because they know that it's going to change their life and it's going to definitely. Put them in the weird category of people, 

and I know that's why it took me so long. And that's what I mentioned in the podcast. Like it took me so long to accept it because accepting that I was ace meant that I was going to have a romantic life. that was going to be different from, from the others. And like I believe that happiness came from being in, um, in a romantic couple and that to be in a romantic couple, you had to have sex.

And so I thought that if I was ace. That would mean that I'd be sad and lonely and, you know, I'd end up dying with all of my cats. And of course I didn't want that. I didn't know any better. No, I know. Of course, like I love being single and I know that if I weren't a romantic, if I was Just a sexual, I could actually find someone to be in a relationship even as an asexual person, you know, back then I didn't know all that.

I, here's the thing. I don't care what your sexual orientation is and I don't care how, what your drive is or whatever. Everything is confusing. True. It's all confusing. And

I could line up a hundred people and ask them about their sex lives and they're all going to be different. They're all going to have shame. Yes. Yes. Every single person is going to have shame. So part of why I wanted to talk to you so badly is. That, while a lot of my episodes focus on people feeling more comfortable having sex, I think part of sex positivity is also not having sex if it's not what you want to do, or you don't have the desire and, and keeping space for that.

I think it's such a huge important part of the conversation. And now you're telling me that there are aromantics or biromantics, and I would love to get into that we're going to talk mostly about sexual attraction and romantic attraction.

Uh, but we could also talk about, you know, like physical attraction, like the desire to like be close to someone physically, but not sexually, we could talk about like a friendship attraction, like being impressed by a mentor or, you know, like a celebrity, like someone that you look up to.

All those are attractions, but they're not the same attractions. And we tend to, in our society to just focus on mostly the sexual or the romantic attractions and things that they go together when they, they don't. Everybody knows that some people are sexually attracted and not in love and not, you know, a romantically attracted like this is, something that is worth thinking about and that it could work the other way around, which is yours. You're romantically attracted to someone, but not sexually attracted. I mean, I've lived that, 

also up until recently, people were just not in love in their life. Like it was very rare for people to fall in love. Like this was extremely rare. And now everybody's saying like, Oh yeah, I'm in love. Suddenly we use Tinder and suddenly everybody's in love. Like it makes no sense.

We want to be in love. So we create. The setting to fall in love. 

I also just wanted to point out that, you know, you talked a lot about high school and wanting to be this spirited kind of liberal feminist woman.

And even though your path ended up being really different, here you are, having dated women, identifying as queer, asexual, I mean, you really ended up where you thought you were going to be. It just looks different.

So in the last episode, uh, which you haven't heard yet, or maybe the one before, actually, I talk about me being a parent, uh, and it just blew my mind. Suddenly, you know, again, like stepping back and looking at your life. And then you realize that you've known all along. And when I was a teenager, I kept dreaming of like, you know, like I would like tell myself stories to in my bed, just fall asleep.

And I like a lot of this time, it was stories of me getting a baby. As a teenager, and it was always like, it's not that I really wanted a kid now. Of course I didn't want a kid now, especially in France, like everybody in Paris, everybody has kids in their thirties, but like, I liked the idea of having a kid and I think because like deep down, I knew that I was not going to be in a straight relationship.

I had to think about the different ways that I could actually. And I had so many, you know, scenarios in my mind, you know, like, uh, like some were very Angelina Jolie inspired, like I would be traveling in Africa and suddenly people would be giving me kids, you know, like very, very, uh, early 2000s.

I'm really sorry. It's very problematic what I just said, but again, you know, you were like. You think according to the models that you have. And at that time I never knew, uh, you know, like people were barely talking about like people having kids on their own voluntarily. And so that was a model that I had, but in all of my scenarios, I was.

Always single, there was never someone with me. So I guess my brain just like, Oh, not my brain. Like deep down, I knew that I was made to be single. And I remember also one of my scenario was just, of course, the one night stand. Like, this is how it's done in the movies, but like, I had a problem. It's like, I didn't want to have a one night stand.

So like, when I look at all those scenarios. It was so clear that I already knew I was ace and aro and I just it took me a lot of time to come to terms with it. And in the meantime before, you know, before accepting it, I went into some, period in periods of, you know, in my life when suddenly I wanted to be in a straight relationship and I have kids like that just because the pressure was so big.

And then in I came back to exactly what I was hoping in high school is to Be single and have a, have a child on your own. Exactly. Wow. That is, yeah. Okay. Interesting. Because in, through your podcast, you do talk about dating a woman named Izzy, a guy named Teddy, and it seemed like you even enjoyed sex sometimes.

But is that, now looking back, maybe just not as accurate? Ah, very interesting question, Rory. No, I, I think, I also mentioned a lot of very bad sexual experiences. Where I consented, but did not want to, it's just men, always the men just like getting the best of me. Just like at some point you just give up and you're just like, let's do it.

I guess like, I, it's what people do. It's what, you know, uh, and so. I think I compared most of my sexual experiences with the bad ones. So like, sure, they were better than the bad ones, obviously. Uh, and some bits I enjoyed, and some bits, some bits I didn't enjoy that much, um, like cunnilingus. Why, why? I don't get it, but some parts of it I liked.

And what I mentioned in the, um, uh, in the podcast is that.

The more I was comfortable with being asexual, the more I talked about it with my partners, the more I felt comfortable saying, you know, having discussion beforehand and afterwards, you know, saying like... I don't want this. I want this. And like the two of us, like the two people involved in sexual relationships, just like getting to actually discuss what we want when we want.

And like, to me, it was really hard when we started doing that with my, three different, my three, um, last partners. And it was really hard because I didn't know, like, I didn't care enough to actually know what I wanted. Because honestly, like I'm, I don't have sex. I haven't had sex in, in very long time and I really don't mind at all.

So like it was mostly, I, I'm, I try to understand better what I like just because I knew that the other person liked sex and I wanted to engage in this activity with them because I liked it. And if they had told me we're not having sex, I think. Towards the end, I would be like, sure. Great. and at the beginning I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

We need to have sex. Like it's. It matters to you. And like, so I was trying to understand what I like to have those conversations. And I know that my last partner, I really went into it saying, you know, I'm like, I'm fully ace. So I'm going to give you my ground rules. Like no penetration, no this, no that, uh, let's, let's keep it short.

And in the end, I did some of the things that I said that wasn't going to do because just like. You know, my partner looked like they were gonna enjoy it, so it's like, sure, let's do it. You know? But with, I think it's not just about, you know, saying like putting a list of things you want and don't want.

It's also about the other person in front of you, listening to you, actively listening to you. I mean, that's huge no matter. Cause like you can say what the situation exactly. You can say that you want, you want this, you don't want this. Like, first off, during the moment you can change your mind. and you also, even if you said that something was on the list, you may not feel it and having someone in front of you, it was like checking on you and being like, are you sure you want this?

And feeling able to say, Oh, you know, I know I said like for once, let's, you know, let's have, um, A penetration, but like now actually it's been too long. Like it's more like more than a minute, take it off, you know, take it away. Uh, and it's something that you can feel like disgusting if you have someone in front of you, who's like comfortable with it, you know, who's like actually being actively here for you.

Um, so all that to say, did I enjoy it? I know that the more time goes on, the less I want sex, but I do like some bits and, but mostly, I realized that intimacy was not all about sex. And I mentioned, my last partner called Teddy. We had like more like, um, let's be naked in bed relationship than a sexual relationship.

We had a bit of sex, but like the sex was for him and the cuddles were for me. You know what I mean? I realized that what I liked about. The sexual relationship, uh, the sexual experiences I had in the past, it was mostly the cuddles afterwards, like the being naked together, you know, like the being close to each other.

And, and those parts I can actually have without having. The penetration or like the physical activity. I'm honestly, I'm also, I'm too lazy for sex. Like, it's just like, it's sports. You know, I don't do sports. not for me. It's hilarious. I mean, it's hilarious because we could not be more opposite. Like I love sex and feel just so much better after like genuinely, like not just even mentally, but physically, like I feel calmer, I feel.

more balanced. I feel relaxed. there's like an ease and kind of like a glow and everything about it. Like it's a difference, but I, I hear what you're saying. And I, I totally believe you. And it's, it's, it's amazing. And it's hilarious. And I also relate to like pillow talk or whatever the closeness you feel after.

which also brings a glow. Like I felt the glow after a night spent with someone, but it was not because of the sex. It was because of the intimacy that was, that went with it, you know? Yeah. So I talked to, um, Ian Kerner, who's a sex therapist, and we were talking about how, you know, 80% of women don't orgasm from, penetration alone.

And I'm like, that's crazy. Cause you know, about a hundred percent of those women are still doing it. And I was kind of trying to figure out like why. Or why people have sex if they're not actually getting off. And I think there's still, like, oxytocin being released. Like, just physical touch, there's certain things where oxytocin does release.

So it can still be a pleasurable experience, even if it's not equitable. Which... I didn't realize. And also, I think I mentioned this, uh, in the podcast is you can orgasm having sex with someone you're not sexually attracted to. And that's one of the reason why so many ace people have sex with a partner is that.

They don't feel the need, they don't feel the desire for that sexual, experience. They don't feel attracted sexually to their partner like that. But once you're in, you're in the mood, you're in, you know, like your body get into sex mode. And then sometime for some people, again, I'm like, I'm not a very sexual person.

So like even masturbations, like I understand how you can feel so much better after masturbation, but like even for. Me, this is hard. Like, I just don't have a strong sex drive. But some ace people who do like, some ace people do like sex. Like, I don't think a lot of them, but some people, they just, they just don't feel the sexual attraction leading to sex.

Again, I'm talking about like, about asexual people that really feel zero sexual, uh, attraction, but like a lot of ace people actually do feel. Some sexual attraction. So in that case, they just have sex because they feel, you know, that sexual attraction. Um, It was interesting to listen to some of the people that you interviewed talk about it being like, I feel like a tension and then a release, you know, like the way that it's described.

I understand it's not the way that I would describe it, but it is, it's a similar kind of picture or path. What do you think? Allos can learn from aces about intimacy. I think we all need to think about intimacy, what it actually means. I remember talking to someone who said intimacy can sometimes be just sharing breakfast.

You know, like, when you ask couples what is intimacy to them, like, they will all say, most of them won't say sex because Most couples don't have sex anymore. statistically, not a lot of people have sex. Uh, and a lot of people feel intimacy. And so, when we start thinking about it, we're like, we easily find that intimacy doesn't come only from sex, or not at all from sex.

You know, it can come from so many places. And one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast was because talking with my friends, I realized how much we're all broken sex wise, like this, the pressure that has been put on us has made us all broken. Like I don't know a single person that is completely, you know, fine with their sexuality.

We always have some shame or we think that we know. we're not normal or like our bodies, like we're looking or like, we are not aroused enough. Like we should be a man and like, want to have sex all the time, but we don't. the norms are like insane.

And so none of us can feel good with those norms. So one of the reasons why I wanted to do this podcast is because I want us as a society to just think about those norms. To question them and to think what, how could we actually make intimate relationships work? do they have to be romantic? Do they have to be sexual?

If they're romantic, do, like, what, like, how do you talk about sex if you want sex? And also, you know, again, in your life, you're gonna have moments when you're gonna have, When you're gonna want to have sex all the time and some when you won't maybe because you just had a kid maybe because you're you know, you're like your hormones are going through something because your body's changing because like your reality is changing and What are the odds that the person in front of you is going through the same changes at the same time?

But even like before the changes, what are the odds that you'd want sex? At the same time with your partner, always in the same, you know, in the same dynamic with the same mood, like it's impossible. Like we're two people. And so we need to start to drop the shame and start talking about what we want.

But that also means that we need to be able to know what we want. And I know for me, it was hard to just like, be able to say to like physically connect with my buddy. And we need to have more representation of like, a diversity of intimacy, in the media. 

How did you negotiate those conversations? Like before, I mean, now it sounds like you're in a very different place than you were with, say, like, Teddy or even Izzy, but, like, using those as examples, because I think that there are probably gonna be some people listening that are hearing what you're saying, and some of it is resonating.

And I'm guessing if I was one of those people, I would be wondering, well, how do I begin to have these conversations? I'm worried that nobody wants to date me if I don't want to have sex. I'm worried that... You know, if this is like a, a thing that I don't want, like how will I ever mm-hmm. , how will I ever find love?

first off, like, I'm not saying I'm not particularly good at it. So I'm not, I'm not an example, but I, I did try my best. Uh, and those were two different people, you know, like easy is a shy person, not a shy, but like they don't really talk about, you know, about the. They're not very sexual.

And Teddy is very sexual. So like, those were two very different situations. I know that just Teddy was flirting nonstop. And like, even though I said from the get go that I was asexual, Teddy was still flirting. And so we just incorporated these discussions within the flirt. Like, you know, he was like, so what do you like?

You know, like it was part of just talking that what got me attracted to him was just like that. The way he was talking about sex was sexy, like, the way he was just, like, inquiring about what I wanted. And so I guess just, like, once we were in the mood and, and, and, like, he already knew, you know, that I didn't like, like, to have long intercourses, you know, and, and all of that.

And then once we were in the movie, which is like, uh, you know, let's talk, you know, ground rules, but you can actually make it sexy, you know, and be like, uh, so what do you want me? Uh, well, no penetration. Okay. Let's find something else. What about if I did this and that, and it can actually be a game to just discuss what you want and what you.

What you want to do to each other and just like be like, no, I don't think so. But let's maybe let's try something else. This can actually be sexy and it can, I think what's really interesting too, is when you start looking, um, beyond penetration, then suddenly you can start to like, be a bit more creative and find other things that you're attracted to.

So that was one aspect. You know, uh, make it sexy, but also always listen. That's interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess, like, even though you are self admitted not the quote unquote best at this, the way that you navigated it was through kind of, like, open conversation.

Yeah, I think it's the only way to do it. Like, how can you discuss without, like, Words, you know, and like honesty and not judging and like being there for the other. I agree. I agree. I also just think confidence is like always the antidote. No matter what it is, like if you're into anything, if you can say it with confidence, the odds of the other person being down with it, I think go up infinitely.

I've loved talking to you. I wish you lived in LA. We could get a drink. You seem so cool. And you have such a. Unique, different perspective that I, I wish we had more of, you know, I, and I, I, I truly like, it's weird because we don't have the same, uh, relationship to desire, attraction, sex, any of it. But talking to you makes me feel more seen.

But, deep down, like, we all have the same issues with sex, which is too many norms, too much shame, and how do we get away from it?

If people want more of you, how do they find you? so you can listen to my podcast called, uh, uh, free from desire is sexual in the city of love and you can follow me.

I'm on Twitter, but mostly on Instagram and my name, my, my name, my, sorry, it's late in France. We're watching her meltdown in real time. 

And my Twitter and Instagram handle is which, um, maybe just look at the

 I'll link to it. I'll link to it. Thank you. Thank you so much. This was awesome. Thank you.