Are you Dateable?!?

[00:13:00] Hello friends, future friends, haters, and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Uphold, and today we're just gonna jump right into it. But, before we do, if you have not rated and reviewed the show, stop what you're doing, drop me five stars, give me a little review, I would appreciate it.

It's an indie show, so show your girls some love. And for any of you interested in Osea products, the code CRIMES still works to get 10 percent off. Okay, let's jump right into it,

Please welcome UA and Julie from the iconic show, Dateable. Welcome to Crimes of the Heart. Oh, we're so excited to be here. I've never been called iconic before, I kind of like it. I'm really digging it. I feel like it is like an iconic OG podcast in the space. We'll take it. We'll own it.

Yeah, I love this because it feels like we're just hanging out like at this [00:14:00] point. You guys have had your show for eight years. So I feel like you've probably seen a lot change in that time. Definitely. if anything, has been like the biggest shift with ghosting?

It feels like it's just part of the norm now. Yeah. Ghosting became a term because it was abnormal. Yeah. It was like, oh, I got ghosted. Oh, I never heard that term before. Oh, shoot. That happened to me, too. Now it's like, oh, yeah, dating and ghosting are synonymous. It's like one of those things that's been around in theory, right? Like, you know, even pre modern dating, dating apps, people would be waiting by the phone and they wouldn't hear from someone. That's the same thing, but it didn't have this label.

And I think the label is what has made it so, you know, part of dating culture, like the staple now. Yeah. And why do you think it hurts so bad?

Because someone, you know, it's always like this, uh, it's like a dream killer. You had. [00:15:00]potential with someone, or you had a future with someone, or you thought you had a future with someone, or even you just thought you had plans on Saturday with someone. And those dreams and plans get squashed and you have no explanation because they've disappeared.

You are now in your own head trying to understand why this person doesn't want to see you and can't even give you an explanation. And you know everyone's on their phone too. I think that's what makes it worse is you know that they're actively ignoring you, it's not that they just aren't accessible or something back in the day we could justify it a lot more.

Yeah. Right. I know, I do feel like the excuse was like, oh, he's probably busy at work or something came up or like maybe there's like a, you know, like a fluke thing and now it's like, well... I mean, everybody is truly like this to their phone, so it just becomes a lot worse. And you know, like back [00:16:00] in the day before ghosting was a term, it was also before social media was prevalent.

So people were being ghosted, but you weren't like, Oh my gosh, I still see them posting on social media. I still see them moving forward with their life. They truly just disappear from your life, so you don't have to think about them again. The reason why ghosting hurts so much more now is that you can see someone's life.

After they ghosted you. So you know they haven't died. I feel like this happened recently. Like, UA, you had a situation, and I'm like, Oh, he's probably just busy. And you're like, I saw that he just posted a story to Instagram. Wait, what happened? It's not always the way it goes. It's like, Okay, I've not been in dating, you know, in like, actual dating for over seven years.

Okay, we for anybody that does not is not familiar with their show or has been living under a rock, the elevator pitch of what happened to you is ridiculous. that's how Rory and I got connected in the first [00:17:00] place. Mutual friend is Rory's a neighbor. And she's like, you got to talk to my neighbor.

So I love that when people think about it. horrific stories here. Who comes to mind? Yeah. Oh, yeah. You gotta meet this girl. Like if anybody could top you is her. That's iconic. Definition of iconic. So I was in almost five year relationship, found out he was cheating, etcetera, etcetera. And before that, I was in a two year relationship and between those relationships at a six month So during those six months, I didn't really date.

It wasn't really like looking. So it's really been seven years since I've had these kind of normal dating experiences. And now I'm dipping my toes back into dating. A friend of mine was like, Hey, my coworker's friend is single and he seems like a great catch. I want to set you up. Would you be down? Like, sure.

Whatever. Like, what do I have to lose at this point? So we exchanged numbers, we're texting, turns out [00:18:00] he's with his family, you know, he's out of town. But for that week he's out of town, we're nonstop texting every day, getting to know each other. It's very pleasant. It's very communicative. And on the last day when he's out, he's like, you know, I'll be back this weekend.

Would you want to hang out or, you know, meet up? And I said, yeah, let's do it. I'm free Saturday. Weekend rolls around nothing, nothing, nothing. The next week he's like, sorry, I'm back. I'm busy with work. Are you free this week? And I'm like sure I'm free Thursday or Friday gave him some times and then the whole week passes another weekend passes Nothing, nothing, nothing So I sent him this message after after talking to Julie first being like do you think I should send a text?

And, you know, the text was basically like, just seems like we don't have the same communication styles. I really value consistent communication. Wish you the best of luck. And still nothing. It's been like three weeks and it just, it just shot me right back into when I was dating seven years [00:19:00]ago being like, this feels familiar.

I've been there. It's weird. It's like someone can be so hot to. Just to start with, you know, just like show on top of things and really communicative. And as soon as like you're trying to make plans, things just die down. And the what's the kicker for me is that we haven't even met each other. We haven't even seen each other.

And it's already like this. And this is like a guy in his mid 40s, you know, like there's really no excuse for this kind of behavior. I think like what, to me, about it is the most shocking, is it was a setup. Yes. Exactly. Who was on the app at least would be a stranger. It's still not right, but this is a mutual friend in some way.

Yeah, that is where I think, so I think ghosting is acceptable if you haven't met up. Like if it's like an app situation, you haven't met up, and it just, you're like, hmm. You know, like you don't necessarily, I think it's great if it comes up, you could say, hey, I'm not feeling the vibes, whatever. [00:20:00] But I don't think it's totally wrong to ghost in that situation.

And the other situation is after first date. So if I went on a first date and I'm not loving it, I'm like, okay, I'm not going to reach out. Like maybe I say thank you. Maybe I say thank you in the moment, whatever. But then I'm not reaching out, and then he doesn't reach out, and we never talk again. Mm hmm.

Yeah, I think the line is when one person is reaching out, and then you're getting ignored. Yes. Yeah. When you've met. So have you heard about what Bumble's doing, Rory? They now have this thing that they're gonna kick you off if you ghost. But we actually had this come up in our community, in our Facebook group, and a lot of people were like, What is the definition of ghosting?

Because sometimes when you're just, Talking to someone on a dating app and you fade away, does that mean that you've ghosted? It's just such a loose definition, and what you were just saying, it's like when you've met in person, so how will they ever uphold that? I think it's going to be probably misused or abused, and [00:21:00] then they won't.

I agree. It seems very subjective, and like, does that mean that anytime you just stop talking to a rando, On an app, you're now accused of ghosting and you're banned from the app? Well, I also think there's... Look, I've ghosted in situations where I get, like, a creepy vibe. Like, if I think that, like, somebody's going to be aggressive with me, or they're being really pushy to get my phone number, or something like that, and, like, by the way, I've said it on this podcast, I...

Advertise it all the time. It's like, use an app, use a fake phone number, get a Google phone number, or there's plenty of like, text now, like there's plenty of apps that disguise your phone number, do that, because you never know when somebody is going to get aggressive or creepy or whatever, and it generally rears its head before you meet up with them.

For sure. At least in my experience. So you can catch it, but it's awful when they, they have your phone number. But I'm like, so that's when I would go. So then somebody is going to report me and I'm going to get [00:22:00] kicked off the app. Are people going to go through and like start reading our messages? Isn't that a violation of privacy?

Yeah. Or you just hurt someone's feelings or you offend them somehow. And then they want to find a way to kick you off the app. I mean, there's very vindictive ways of using something like this, but I'm glad at least are putting it out there to say, this is not okay. I think that's a good step to take. I just think obviously in everything people are going to abuse it.

Well, I had a story two weeks ago where the girl, the subject was dating a guy for a year. And then he ghosted out of nowhere. We've heard that before. That's so bad. It's really messed up. Like, that, to me, You just don't have any communication skills at that point. Or you're very avoidant. I mean, but then I'm like, how did you get in a relationship?

It's bad. What do you even... I don't know. Okay, so say I come to you guys and I'm like, I've dated this guy for a [00:23:00] year and he just won't text me back. Like, he won't answer my phone calls. I guess we're not dating anymore. Or, like, what would you tell me to do? I mean, I think you dodged a bullet, even though it sucks at the time, but do you want to be with someone that does that?

That's not a partner. But, when it was good, it was just so good. I know, that's so hard, because you want to be like, Fuck him, you know, don't, like, you can move on, and you dodged a bullet and all of that, but also understand that there was like, feelings, guilt, and then you want to give this person benefit doubt, like, are they dead?

Did they get in an accident? Are Have they like hurt themselves, injure themselves, lost their memory? I don't know. You want to give them all those excuses, but 99. 9 percent of the time, this person truly just goes in and just really fucking sucks. And we just want answers. I do wonder, though, if we do track down answers, if we force these ghosters to give us answers, would they actually give us [00:24:00] answers that we want?

Honest answers. Yeah. I don't know. Or, yeah, what's better? To hear that they're not into you or to hear some very specific thing like, I don't know, we were eating dinner and the way you hold your fork grossed me out so much I just couldn't handle it. That tells a lot about someone's character, right? If they're that avoidant where one little ick set them off and they just could not face you, that gives me a lot of information about this person. I think that's better than just me ruminating in my own mind being like, was this something I said?

Was this something I wore? Did I offend this person? Like, this is, if he gave me that answer, I'd be like, okay, it's definitely on him. There's something wrong with it. I mean, it's one of those things when you're in it, of course you want to know why, but the why almost doesn't matter. In this situation, we did an episode where we had someone that was, you know, prone to ghosting.

She admitted that she was a [00:25:00] ghoster. We called it Confessions of a Reformed Ghoster. And she said on this podcast that Every instance had very little to do with the other person and it entirely to do with her own, you know, mental state where she was in terms of just avoiding conflict at any cost and the fact that she just wasn't ready to be in any semblance of a relationship at that stage of her life.

And yeah, it's really painful when you have feelings, of course, but I do agree. It's like the character is like, you have to change it to, do I want to be with a person like this? Yeah, I do think that is the unlock. And the answer is no. No, you definitely don't. But you know, it's like, you don't know.

Sometimes avoidant or a ghost or till they get presented with an opportunity. My mom's friend just told me the story of her daughter. Got ghosted a week before her wedding. They had been together for seven years. They were planning that already planned their [00:26:00] wedding. They sent out the invites a week before their wedding.

He left, he packed all his shit. He left and she never heard from him again. Years later, she finds out through their mutual friends. He met someone else. They got engaged and he did the exact same shit to her. He left her right before the wedding. It's like, you don't know, cause you are madly in love with this person.

You're trying to plan your future. And I don't know, like you have to be presented in that opportunity to know this person's true colors. but crazy, it's hard to fathom that this is the first time before a wedding. Clearly he has cold feet when it comes to getting married, but that's crazy that you've been, you've got to the point that you're about to get married and someone does that.

Yes. And twice he did it twice. What's more about him again, that goes back to this is clearly a him thing, not these people. There's probably much deeper things going on for that one. For sure. The typical, the [00:27:00] mainstream ghosting is usually at the beginning of a relationship before it's actually a relationship in that like getting off the ground stage.

I know for me, I've been ghosted. Yue and I have a wild story about ghosting, if you want to hear it. Yeah. So, this was, I don't know how many years ago at this point, probably like, I don't know, four or five years ago. And I went on this date and it was just a magical first day, you know, super into each other. Uh, You know, you were there forever.

You know that date. I We all know it. Yeah, like I'm really attracted to this guy. We're like going deep, probably a little too deep for the first date. But you know, like one of those moments that you're like, Oh, this could be something. We kiss at the ends of the night. He's like, When are we going to see each other again?

Like laying, you know, all signs are pointing towards this is going in a good direction. We had a date set up a time. We didn't have like an actual date, but it was going to be for Wednesday [00:28:00] of the following week. So we met like Friday, Wednesday, that again, all signs are pointing. The next day he's nonstop texting me.

I had to be like, Hey, gotta go to work. Like, simmer down a little, but again, no signs. Saturday rolls around. So it must have been a Thursday night. Saturday rolls around and I pull up my phone and I just like went on Bumble. This is from Bumble. And I noticed he had unmatched me. And I'm like, that's kind of weird.

But you know, some people are weird like that. Some people, once they meet, they'll unmatch. So I didn't think that much of it. And then I messaged him on Sunday. Cause like, we didn't talk on Saturday, but that's totally fine. Message him on Sunday, like, how was your weekend? Nothing. So then Monday rolls around.

So wait, hold on. at what point did the instinct kick in? You know, it was the instinct kicked in when I saw that he had unmatched me. I'm like, something feels off. Uh huh. But then on that, when I sent the message and then didn't get a response back, I'm like, okay, that confirms it. This [00:29:00] is weird. So then Monday rolls around.

We're supposed to have plans on Wednesday, mind you. No idea where we're meeting, when we're meeting. Clearly, you know, I don't know. I still hadn't thought I was ghosted at this point. I thought like maybe Something came up. It was all a little weird, but it hadn't fully hit and then I think I might have even sent, like, another message, like, on Monday.

Yeah, it was, like, okay, I'm, like, totally missing up the dates, but, like, it was maybe Thursday that we were supposed to meet up, so I sent a message on Tuesday. Don't hear back. Again. So now you're two messages. Yeah, two messages, unresponded. The date is, like, a day or two out. Looming. Nothing. So then I'm, like, freaking out to UA.

I'm just, like, what is going on? This is so confusing. It's so vague. UA's like, I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. I'll let UA take over the story from here. This is where you and I are, uh, spirit animal glory, because we... Gotta find the truth. We get shit done. So I [00:30:00] create a fake profile on Bumble. Yes, girl!

Yes! And our goal was to, like, set him up on a fake date and have him just be at this bar by himself. That was our goal. Or, we just want to see what the fuck was going on. Make sure he's alive! We the fuck, yeah, we want to see what was going on. And I think, like, you know, the fake profile, I have a really good idea of what, who is a girl who would appeal to the masses, you know, like this is a girl that everybody will probably swipe on.

She had a very like neutral job, neutral background, all of it, neutral looks, all of it. And by the way, if this ever happens again and you would like to use my photos, I volunteer as tribute. Love it. Love it. I can use, I can get you the preppy girl headshot. I could go edgy. Like I'm just down for the cause.

I hope it never happens again, but I'm just saying, if you need somebody that looks like me, I'm in. Okay. We'll keep that in our back pocket. Let's do it. The best part too, to add, is that this, all the photos you may use were not the [00:31:00] same girl. There were like four photos and they were all different people.

It's like, one of them was like stock image. Yeah, I do not know how to use Photoshop. It's a brunette girl. And there's many pictures from many angles, I guess she just looks like a different ethnicity in each picture. Anyway, so I'm swiping through and Julie's like, no way you're gonna like no fucking way there's So many people on this app, and you know, it took me like a good three hours, but I fucking found this guy

She sends me a photo, she's like, is this him? And I'm like, damn, you're good, . Yeah, I had no doubt, no doubt. And we match, right? Mm-hmm. , he's alive, match, fully alive. And I, you know, we're having a conversation and I find that he, his location is changing. He's going from home to work. To home, like we're seeing the distance change, all of that.

The guy is like fully living his life . And the best part too is that we worked like right near each other, like on the same blocks. The odds of [00:32:00] running and we were in the same industry, somehow we were connected on LinkedIn before we even went on a date. There were so many connections to this person.

All he needed to say was something changed for me. And then, you know, I might've stalked him on Instagram and I, he is with this girl. That he's engaged to now and clearly it was like around the same time. I don't know. Maybe they were together before me It's hard to know what the timelines were or maybe they were just starting out around the same time But the time 100 percent lined up and again, i'm happy for him.

Like i've met someone amazing You've met someone amazing. That's great. We weren't meant to be All you needed to do was buck up and just say that. You know what bothered me is like, he's matched with my fake profile and we were chatting and we're trying to make plans to meet up and he ghosts me when it comes to actually like solidifying the plans.

So it shows me that he wasn't in the mindset to meet up anymore, but he was still in the mindset to flirt. Yeah. Chat [00:33:00] with girls on the apps, which really bothered me. Like it really fucking bothered me because he wasn't going to like go through with any of the plans, obviously deepening a relationship with someone else, but still wanted the validation.

Yes. okay. There is a guy who is a writer and I, we have mutual friends and we went out on a date once. And I cannot remember if we matched on an app or how it happened, but I do know that we quickly realized like, oh man, we have so many mutual friends in common. We, you know what? We might have met out IRL.

He asked me out. He pursued me. Like he came on so strong and I was like Oh this guy like really likes me We meet up at a bar in Highland Park and the date is going great.

Like it's amazing and I'm like, okay Wow, this is weird. I guess this is like maybe gonna be like a thing and then we go to leave And he doesn't try to kiss me. He doesn't try to whatever and I was like red flag like I [00:34:00] feel like when a date is really great, at bare minimum, a guy is trying to like, you know, small of your back, hand on your waist or like a intimate hug or something when you part ways.

Nothing. And that is when my intuition kicked off and I was like, spidey sense, something's not right. And I didn't hear from him, so he, I guess, ostensibly ghosted. Tell me why I went to his Facebook, which I had never done. who uses Facebook? I went to his Facebook, and that man had posted about his first kiss with another woman, like, Several weeks prior to this date.

If you post it about that, that's like a red flag in itself. It's so cringe. It's so cringe. Yes, red flag in itself. But I was like, wait, what? And he's now married to this woman and I think they have a baby. they're definitely married. I know that. And they seem happy or whatever, but all I can think about is like, isn't it kind of weird that like when you guys were dating, he like definitely overlapped [00:35:00]with me, like pursued me, went on a date with me, didn't kiss me.

So didn't technically like. Cross any physical boundaries, but it was weird enough for me to go check and then realize Wow, I was like used as like basically, Like the comparison with which he decided to make the final choice with his now wife Yeah, I mean, the thing is, though, at, like, not, you know, not defending him, but, like, at that point, at the early stage, a lot of times people are just trying to figure it out.

Like, it might not have been intentional in that sense, that it was a comparison, but maybe that was, like, the, what he needed to commit to someone else, like, because that subconscious, we've heard that a lot. I'm just saying that out of this. Yes, most guys. talk about, like, last call. Like, is they think that they're gonna be with this girl forever?

They'll go, like, fuck a bunch of chicks to just try and get it out of their system, which is, I mean, I've heard this from lots of guys, which is kind of crazy and kind of gross. But, you know. I mean, there definitely are those, but I think there are innocent [00:36:00] people too that are just trying to, like, figure out.

what they want. Like, I think sometimes it's not as calculated as it seems. Does it suck to be that person on the other side of it? Absolutely. Because then you're like, who was I? I was just the comparison. You're the roadkill of the situation. And that stinks. But it's not always necessarily malicious. That being said, it goes back to Communication again.

Yeah, I could have just told you that like, Hey, I met someone that I'm like, you know, you don't just say it like you probably wouldn't have cared. Maybe, you know, I'd feel like a second, but then you'd be over it. 100 percent like, the great irony of it all was I was like, He kind of looks like what I imagined Burt would look like if Burt and Ernie were real people.

Is that hot? No, no, that's where I'm going with this. Is that a compliment? No, this is not a guy that I was like super wet over, you know what I mean? Like, I just thought he was smart and cool and whatever [00:37:00] and the irony is like, I thought, oh, he has integrity, we have mutual friends. Like, I just find it so, really coming full circle.

I think it's so weird when people Ghost or do something like this where it's like last call situation and They know that you'll probably run into each other. They definitely know how to find out fine Yeah, I just don't think they think that far. I don't know people, you know, it's like in these situations People are not thinking with their heads It's And it sounds like he was very attracted to you. He wanted to make sure that he, I don't know, got this out of his system or to see like if he could truly commit to this girl with someone he's now that he's like with, you know, he's going on a date with some, he's very attracted to, I like part of me kind of gets it.

But to Julie's point, it's the lack of communication that what makes it not okay because all he needed to. To let you, which is to let you know [00:38:00] what is going on, which is a very natural thing hard. We, all of us are, may have multiple people that we're trying to consider or whatever it is, we just need to like be Talking about it out loud to the people that are involved.

Yeah. I mean, I really think that's the biggest issue in modern dating. We blame dating apps and I think dating apps fuel this because everyone's anonymous, right? You don't know the people. It's easier to do this behavior. It's justifiable. Like there's a lot of reasons that Accelerates it. But I don't think ultimately it's the apps.

It's the people behind the apps. And if you think about it, like we weren't taught how to have relationships at school. Like we were taught about relationships through rom coms and bad dating books, like the rules where we just like expect things to happen and no communication ever has to happen. And I think our generation just doesn't know how we don't have those relational Um, skills.

And that's why a lot of [00:39:00] times relationships don't work out either, because we can't move through it. And if people just communicated better up front, there would be a lot less of this. All these like crimes of the heart of ghosting just wouldn't exist. But it seems so easy, yet for some reason it's so difficult, because we don't have the skills.

It's the practice. So there's, in two of the stories that got mentioned, this both happened, the fast and furious, like, dating. I mean, texting. But like, I personally used to love that shit. That was my crack. But now I avoid it. It's so much so that I will just straight up tell men. I'm sorry, this is not my thing, like I prefer to keep it in person at least at the beginning if you want to hop on a phone call or whatever, I'm down to check in, I'm super busy, I'm really focused on my bag, I hope that's okay with you, and if it's not, like it wasn't recently, there was a guy that I said [00:40:00] that, I think it got him into check, and then he, he ghosted me.

Mmm. I don't think you're wrong for that, because, you know, it's obviously how you say it, and you say it in a way that still makes you seem like you want to continue to meet someone and be with them, but I do think, like, so much of, we evaluate texting so highly when it actually doesn't really mean anything a lot of the times.

Like, it's super easy to text, even though some people can't do it in Ghost, but for the most part, like, it's easy to have a conversation. You can do that. On the freaking toilet. If you want, it's harder to make the plans. It's harder to work through the issues or whatever it is. Like the texting is the easy part.

Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like anytime something goes, accelerates at a pace that feels. What I would call like fast or like, yeah, we were texting all day. I, in my head, if I'm listening to a story goes cool, that's going to fail. And in my heart I go, Oh, this is doomed. It's over. And I wasn't always like that.

[00:41:00] I used to see it as like, were so into each other. We're just like, the attraction is so great. this is the beginning of our love story. And I'm like, Oh shit, this is the beginning of the end. I appreciate the enthusiasm. And I think that's like, what's. so innocent about early dating. That's so fun.

It's like, I'm so excited to get to know this person. I know nothing about them. I want to learn as much as possible. The problem is we don't, a lot of times we don't know how to carry that enthusiasm into in person. So it fails. People ghost or people feel like they can't live up to their texts, which we've heard from a lot of daters.

Like I can be very witty over text, but I'm not this witty in person, I'm going to let this person down. So I think it's just a disconnect between our texting selves and our in real life selves. But I love your suggestion of Getting on a call, you know, if you, if you're texting a lot and really having a good time getting to know each other, let's get on a call.

Maybe you're not, not in the same town yet. let's get to know each other over the phone or video [00:42:00] call. And then we can deepen that communication because I agree. Like the endless texting It really doesn't go anywhere. It doesn't do any good. Well, there's also a difference between someone stepping up and reaching out and making you seem like they're interested, versus the all day, every second, I didn't have a life before you situation.

And that's when it burns. There's a big difference between the two. Yes, I agree. And I'm talking about the second. I like to dip a toe in the water by sending a voice memo. I like to do it unexpectedly. Normally my first voice memo will be like, if they say something funny and it actually made me laugh, I'll record myself laughing. And then they're always like, whoa, and, and, or I'll just be like, sorry, that was so funny.

I needed you to like actually hear me laughing to try and like shift it because I think when you hear somebody's voice or the intonation, you get a better sense of their vibe just in general. And I think it breeds a sense of [00:43:00] intimacy, but that is like different than texting, right? Because I mean, I'm a professional writer.

I can run circles around you texting, you know what I mean? But it doesn't really mean anything. and then another trick that I like to use is like when they send theirs back, I'll respond by being like, whoa, your voice is like really, I didn't expect that.

Like, wow, it's really sexy. It's good to hear your voice. like a little positive reinforcement to try and, to try and be like, let's keep talking. Not via text. This is why dating is hard though is because everyone has their own style, which is totally great But a lot of times people will think they're getting ghosted when they're not even they'll think like oh this person didn't text me back But they're like, oh, I just want to do a phone call or something which again comes back to just communication but I agree with you like I remember there was a time that I was with my Like, dated this guy.

We went out twice. It wasn't a big thing. He had just come out of a divorce. We had him on our podcast, actually. I was his [00:44:00] first date in seven years. Yeah. So he was texting me all day, every day, but there was this feeling that it wasn't because he was interested. It was because he was bored. And that's the problem with texting too, or relying too much on that, is one, you don't know people's texting.

Behaviors, what's going on in their life, or are they into you or are they just bored? There's a big distinction. Yeah. Are they just used to texting their wife and now they're copy pasting onto you? That's what it felt like. What about social media? So I think we touched on this earlier. Like one of the things that really sucks about getting ghosted is that for so many of us, we either follow that person on social media or they follow us.

So it does feel like there's this weird tether to the person that has now ghosted us. Yeah. And that can be triggering. So do you guys think, like, what's the stance on following people that, not your boyfriend, but like people that you're dating?[00:45:00] UA and I did this, you know, we had another podcast that we did called Exit Interview.

And we were shocked how many people were still connecting. This was the podcast where we interviewed past dates and exes of the people that wanted to That's amazing. I did that I have exit interviews every time I have sex with someone. Oh, really? Yeah. Amazing. Like right after you have sex? Maybe not like immediately, but yeah.

I'm always down to like, talk about it, see if we want to improve on it, but also just like, I'll be like, you know, especially if the person made me come, then I'm like, Hey, so let's talk about that. Like I'm, I'm so interested in understanding how they knew what to do or like, because the more I know about my body, the better I can explain it to other people.

I just feel like it's a really great opportunity to then open the door in terms of, like, what are kinks, what are boundaries. It's just... See, exit interviews for the win. Exit interviews. Yeah. [00:46:00]Anyway, sorry. I totally Tangent. But so many people are like, yeah, I still am connected to this person through social media.

And they had gone on like one date with them. And we're just like, you and I are like, why are all these people connected? I get if you're like actively dating this person or, you know, there's been something that's at least made it feel a little more of something. But Mmhmm. Going on one or two dates and then just having this person linger when the odds of one or two dates not going into more Seems like a recipe for disaster to me personally I know I think the problem is is that if you use say Instagram as a dating app That's where it becomes a little harder.

I know yes, I agree with you too. Like I'm no longer interested in Following people unless it's going to be a thing because I don't want you to be on my mind more than you already are. No. No. I remember we had one guy from the exit interview saying like he only went out with this girl [00:47:00] once. Yet he had this whole vision of who she was because of her stories.

Mmm. And we all know that social media is not the full picture. Yeah. So I feel like you're just getting way ahead of yourself even if something was to work out. At those early stages, you basically feel like you know someone more than you actually know them. I agree, yeah. Although the only caveat I will make to that Is I still very much follow the girls that are like the exes of the guys that I dated or like or like the guy They do like the girls that the guys cheated with me on and like I root for them I like silently root for them from my finsta Okay  I have a verified account. I can't be like, just sneaking up on people. They'll see it. I have a little list of people. I don't follow them, but I sure check up on them. Yeah. I'm not going to let them know I follow them.

That's true. But, hell yeah, I'm going to check up on them every once in a while. I feel like that time for me that got [00:48:00] into all my stocking. Like I went on Venmo because I wanted to see if this guy was alive. And Venmo was actually open. I was, UA thought he had a girlfriend. That was your hypothesis, remember?

And I'm like, I'll go on Venmo and see if there's any transactions. Venmo is a good stocking technique. I know, but unfortunately I was at the New York times. Someone just, I think it was the New York times just did an article about this. And I was like, you're not supposed to say the quiet part out loud. Yeah, we can't have Venmo making everything anonymous now because of this. That'd be terrible. They're gonna be DMing me like, Hey, can I use your photo for this fake app?

I know, your face is gonna be everywhere. Yes, you can. By the way, run with it. Just don't name it me. What would your fake name be if we had to give you one for this profile? I always go to Lisa.

We should just create that account today. We should. Just start doing everything we need to. Like I don't want to be on the apps myself, but I would love to swipe as you. Yes. We could start doing loyalty tests. Oh shit. What do you guys think about loyalty [00:49:00] tests? Like you swipe on the person your friend is dating.

the loyalty tests that I've seen are like girls who are on tick tock or like I'll do a loyalty test on the guy you're dating or your boyfriend or whoever, and then they go to their Instagram and then they slide into their DMs to see if they'll take the bait. This is why I date people that don't have Instagram.

 All my partners are not, all my past partners have not been social media people. Wait, that's one of my red flags. Oh my god, it's a green flag for me. I think it's a green flag. Green flag. So hard. The last thing I want is someone, like, taking photos all the time. Like, I do it enough. Agreed. Okay, first off, if he can take good photos of me, that's a green flag.

That's all that matters. Yeah. No, so I feel like the no social media thing is how I've, how I was cheated on once. I've talked about this. It's like how I became really good friends with my friend Alana. He had been my boyfriend for four months and he gets on a flight and he sits down next to Alana and they have like the most romantic, whatever, meet cute on [00:50:00] an airplane and then he asks her out and then they start dating.

so he had two girlfriends, me and her, and then eventually I found out and then eventually she found out and then we met up to talk about it and really hit it off and I was like, well, you're cooler than he ever was. And then we've just stayed friends. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yikes. I know. But anyway, the social media of it all is how I ended up getting screwed.

So when guys tell me they're like, not on social media, I'm like, where's your wife and kids? Oh, I see. Like they're hiding something. Uh, yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's some that are like that, but there's also just a lot of guys that don't want to do it. Yeah. There's you guys. Yeah. Who's just not into that kind of thing?

I don't know if I would draw like, oh, they have the wife and kids cause they don't have social media. They could. It's a could, but I don't know if it's a necessary a hundred percent. I've been needing, I need to see the phone. See, that's where, that's where my crazy comes out. Like there are certain things where I'd be like, okay, okay.

Let me just see your phone. Let me just [00:51:00] see your phone. So How do you think people get over the hurt involved in ghosting?

Like what is the advice, like the practical advice for when somebody is like feeling really bad about themselves, you know, they don't have closure. They're wondering what they've done or they're going into their personal narrative of like, Oh, it must be because I'm too much. Or it must be because I'm not enough for the comparison.

You know, what would you say to those? Listeners. I mean, this part is so hard because we all go there. We always go to ourselves first, but like what we were saying earlier, it's usually more about them than it is about us. That being said, I think like timeboxing it, like you can be upset, you can be hurt, you can be annoyed, we're never going to tell you not to be anything and to feel what you need to feel.

But ultimately remembering that this is not about you. This is about this other person. Feel what you need to feel, but your goal is to find that [00:52:00] person that's gonna be wonderful for you. Why let this person get in the way? I think it's having that confidence that you are a catch. You deserve someone that's, at a minimum, just gonna tell you what's on their mind, even if it's not what you want to hear.

Again, this isn't the person you want to be with. Don't want to diminish the feelings that come from it. So anything you can do to stay in that mindset, but feel what you need to feel, that's kind of the way forward. I mean, I think like when I, before I met my partner, I feel like I got ghosted, rejected more than I ever did in my life.

And it was because I felt, though, that I'm like, I'm getting closer, like, I know this is happening, I just need to go through this, and this is not a reflection of me. If anything, it's because I'm putting myself out more than I ever did before. I'm doing the text, I'm sending whatever, instead of just waiting passively for my love life.

So look at what you're doing, not what's just happening to you. Again, easier said than done, but the right [00:53:00] person is not going to ghost you. And... It says so much more about that. Just think about this episode. Like the guy that left your mom's friend or whoever it was at the altar that had nothing to do with that woman.

Crazy. No, still so nuts. And it just, it's like ghosting is just another opportunity to give you information about this person. And. The problem with dating is that in the beginning, it's like fun and games, everyone's great under fine and games. You're, you know, like there's no issues, challenges, no conflict.

Of course, you're going to really like this person and see them in a, in an ideal way. But the ghosting comes when things get tough. Maybe it's something they're dealing with personally or decision they have to make or where they are in life. That's where the real colors are shown, and I think we all just have to be grateful that we get ghosted when we do, because that's the information that we were looking for to evaluate this person as a potential [00:54:00] partner.

It fucking sucks. It's hard to not take it personally, but at the same time, my mom always said to me, she's like, can you imagine if you had kids with this person and your kid was sick and then he just ghosts the kid or he just leaves you? Or he just runs away. You with that person. Like, when it comes to things that truly matter, do you want to be with someone who just runs away?

You don't. So thank God they're running away right now. Because you don't have to deal with that later. I read this great quote that was like, he may leave you with a broken heart, but at least he didn't leave you with his kids. You know, like something like that. Where it's like, at least the relationship didn't get deep enough where it hurts you in more ways than one.

So do you think, I mean, what's, how do you strike the balance between going into these new relationships still being vulnerable and not like being hardened or holding people at an arm's length? you want to be able to invest enough that it gets to a point where things could progress into a [00:55:00] relationship.

But it's like how do you withhold enough of yourself so that when somebody goes to you, maybe, I don't know, a month or two in, you're not devastated. Yeah. I mean, we've definitely seen people, you know, our list, some listeners that we've talked to go into every day being like, I'm going to get ghosted. I'm going to get ghosted.

And that is not the approach either because then it's just a self fulfilling prophecy and that's not going to set out the right energy. I mean, I really think it comes back to the mindset you're going into dating with, with you as the prize. Like you're the person. All these people don't matter. They're not like, they're kind of like the path to get to where you want to go.

It's all about you, not them. So if you can look at it, like. Okay, this, I'm going to be myself because I want to meet someone that appreciates me and attracts, is attracted to me. If that person's not it, then there's going to be someone else. It's the scarcity versus abundance mindset. And it's again, easier said than done, but the more we can shift ourselves to being that [00:56:00] main character, the less we worry about the other people.

And how do we just like keep going on our journey till that right person is there? I think holding back and withholding, that's not a good strategy either because then you don't give the opportunity for the right person to step up. That being said, I don't think you need to tell someone like your life story on date number one.

Like use your discretion as it goes. But how do you just kind of keep This feeling of like, I know what I want, I have this clear vision, and if this person isn't it, then someone else will be it. Yeah, what if I don't believe I'm a catch? Then that's the work that needs to happen outside of dating. I think dating, we use dating as validation, and that's why this stuff hurts so much.

But ultimately, that's work that has nothing to do with dating. Of course, you can't stop dating because it will hit in a different way, but how do you build that yourself up in whatever way that is? I attempted to loop that a second [00:57:00] time. They're somewhat very specific in my life. That I tell this to all the time and I just, I couldn't agree with you more.

I think if you're in a position where, we're not talking about like a year in ghosting, we're not talking about before your wedding. I'm talking about, you know, it's been three weeks, it's been five weeks, it's, it's, it's still what I would call casual or maybe it's just only been a couple of dates. And you're really getting your feelings hurt or you feel pretty disappointed.

I do think it's time to pull back and go, what part of me is hurting? Yeah. Mm hmm. I mean, I've been that person before and I realized 100 percent for like all my 20s it was what's wrong with me? Why can't anything get past the third date? Like that was part of the reason why I wanted to start dateable because I felt so alone in it.

And I think we hear this all the time that people hearing that the other people are going through this too. It makes you [00:58:00] feel like it's not just you that there's something wrong with. But the last time around, I was in a totally different mentality in the sense of I'm really happy with my life. Of course, I still want to meet someone.

But ultimately, I want to meet the right person for me, not just be with anyone. And that shift allows you to, you know, not take it as personally. Because let's be honest, if we meet someone for an hour over drinks, We really get ahead of ourselves a lot of times, it's all in the fantasy. And we see this happen all the time, especially when you're trying to fill that void and use dating as validation.

We go on one date with someone and we think that this person's gonna be the one and change our lives and all this stuff. It's like, how well do you even know this person? You don't. Right. Well, I have this thing called High Heel Theory. And it's like, I... look great in high heels, right? And I can walk in them and wear them for, for me.

I mean, if it's work related, I'll, I'll tough it out, but it's like really about four hours. That's [00:59:00]sort of my max. And then my feet start to cramp and it's just awful. But I don't live like that. So I can show up to a date and present for short periods of time, and you can get the high heeled version of me, but the way that I live my life is in slippers and sneakers, and I think most people are showing up to dates in the quote unquote high heels.

100%. We've got to have enough time to peel back the layers so that we can see them in their vans, so we can see them in their chucks, whatever they're wearing, you know what I mean? And get to know them. And if we're immediately investing into that high heeled version of them, it's like falling in love with a fantasy.

Yeah, I think my ex really helped me in this in the weird way that he had a lot of mental health issues and a lot of our relationship like didn't progress to the level that I think he even wanted because of this. And it was actually really good for me to see. Because I'm like, look, it's not [01:00:00] all about me.

I think in early stage dating, you think it's all about you. This person didn't call you back. There's something wrong with me. But you don't know this person at all. You have no idea what they're going through. And for the first time I was able to see, like, actually, this has nothing to do with me. It has 100 percent to do with this other person.

And the more you can detach it and not take Dating so personally, again, easier said than done, took dating personally for years. But that's the reality, and that's the truth. It's not all about you, in a good way. It's so funny that you said that. I kind of ghosted the guy I'm dating for a week. I'm saying that in like a real, hyperbolic sense, I didn't actually ghost him. You know, we, we had plans, and then I kept pushing them because the first time, I forgot. I was like, oh shit, we made plans for a Tuesday and I can't do Tuesday. And then it was like, okay, Wednesday and Thursday I had things and I thought maybe I could see him, whatever, and it just didn't work.

And then, by Friday, I was like, just depleted, and tired, and then the [01:01:00] weekend I was feeling like, uh, just going through some real Astrological stuff. How about that? You know, I was just, I was just in my feels and I didn't feel super sexual. I didn't really want to, to be loved.

And I don't even mean that in like a, let's diagnose this sort of way. It's just sometimes you need alone time, right? Yeah. And then I think it was like Monday night rolled around and I was like, shit, I have not hit him up. So I hit him a text and was like, I owe you an apology, I'm so sorry, whatever, like, I, I dropped off, I was just, I was just going through it, whatever, I explained myself.

And he wrote back, all good, like, I just figured you were going through something, it's like, not a big deal. And that's fine because our dynamic is really casual and, and cool, and by the way, if he had texted me, I would have texted back. Right. Mm hmm. It's not like, so that's why I say I ghosted, I just, I dipped out.

But. Perfect example is that had everything to do with one my schedule kind of running me ragged and then to slowing down and I coincidentally whenever I slow down I also get the sads, And just being like, I needed to take Saturday to [01:02:00] just read a book all day and like cry twice and then go to bed at like 9 45 PM.

You know what I mean? Right. Nothing to do with him. Hot girl shit. Well, also like back to your question about, you know, someone's like not feeling their self worth. I think that's like the problem is that if you're not, if your cup is not full, You can't depend on dating to make your cups. Well, in fact, it's just going to keep depleting you because when you put your self worth on other people's actions, it's like dating is like a drug.

You're going to get the highs and you get the lows. So for anybody who's kind of going through it, also know that you've got to take care of yourself first before you put yourself out there for dating. Like dating should be additive and it shouldn't be there to like help you with your self worth. and help you feel validated.

If anything, it's just going to do the opposite, right? Cause we're all like in our own things. We're going through our own shit. We don't take care of ourselves. We cannot count on strangers on an app to take care [01:03:00] of. No, half of them are bots, I think like, you know, one thing that I've heard is like, I so badly want.

A boyfriend or I so badly want a husband and I'm putting myself out there and it just seems like I just keep getting rejected and it's like, why doesn't anyone like me? Like I don't understand what is wrong with me. The guys just ghost me all the time or you know, they, they try, they make plans with me but then they bail.

Like what, what about me is not worthy of love? Yeah. It's a hard place to be in. Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to you're really good at this worry. You are able to set your boundaries from the beginning and for anybody who may feel like that's too harsh to do in early dating, think about what are ways you can set the other person up for success.

What I'm practicing recently is that positive reinforcement. If someone's texting me consistently, I let them know. I really appreciate the consistent communication, it makes me happy. [01:04:00] If someone makes definitive plans with me, I make sure I tell them that. It makes me really happy when you make definitive plans.

If they don't, I then go into establishing some boundaries. Like I can't make plans this last minute because I really appreciate advanced definitive planning. And at least I am doing my best to set up the other person for success. And how to make it work with me, and if they don't take the bait, then I know that I can move on from there, right?

But we can't expect Do you also step back? Cause like when I set the boundary, I also step back. Mm hmm. I don't know how to explain that, cause it's like I can't walk somebody through my mind and my heart, but I feel like if somebody's making a plan and then they change it or they can't see to it, and I don't mean like This thing came up and I'm rescheduling in the moment for another day or whatever, but kind of like oh shoot I can't do it.

Let's do another time and then there's no other time or whatever like I'm chasing it down I feel like [01:05:00] that's the moment in which I write people off not completely But I'm kind of like I'm good. I see where this is going. This is already a red flag I like to like call it out for myself and be like this is not what I'm looking for.

Right Do you do that too? I think it's very empowering to do that. It's hard. I like, I have to make myself do that. But sure, it's already, I've already lost an ounce of interest in my mind and I need to be able to communicate that somehow. I need to be able to say you know, like it disappoints me when plans don't go through and we already made plans, but it would make me happy if we made definitive plans.

I would say boner killer, because that really pisses dudes off. But you've given them a chance to step up, Yue, in that situation. If they don't, then you've done all you can do. There's nothing more you can do. I think Patterns is really interesting. You brought this up, Rory, of like, this always happens to me.

Like, why does [01:06:00] this keep happening to me? I remember being in therapy and saying the same thing. And my therapist was like, Let's take a step back. Like, I remember being like, no one wants to be in a relationship with me, and she's like, let's go through all the years of your life and what you were doing in those years and see, like, were you actively dating?

Were you trying to be in relationships? It turns out that wasn't the case. Also, it turned out there were a lot of people that want to be in relationships with me. We tend to find these patterns, like when we want something, like how many times have you heard it? a friend be like, Oh, no one's interested in me.

But then there's like 10 guys that are lining up, but she's just not interested in them. Right. We don't always look at the pattern holistically. We only look at like what we want. So I think actually stepping back to look at the pattern, like, is this actually always happening or is it just happening in this instance?

And it's not happening in this instance. Or was I not actually even focused on dating and relationships in these years? Was I building a life or whatever? Like that can give you a lot [01:07:00] more confidence that this is it. I'm so glad you said that. I just, I, to just add to that, I think we seek out the familiar.

Yeah. So it doesn't mean that somebody wants to be the victim, but I do think sometimes people are comfortable and they repeat that pattern and swap out victim for whatever the thing is I'm always rejected that I'm not good enough, that I'm not hot enough. Whatever it is and it's like if that is the mental story or the thing that you have ringing throughout your head And that's what you keep preaching if that's what you're telling your friends.

Nobody wants to date me You've you actually feel comfortable. Yeah in that space. That's nobody wants to date me I'm not saying you like it or that you enjoy it or that you deserve it, but that pattern is familiar So you're going to continue to? Relive that pattern until you break it. Yes. 100%. It's letting go of that narrative because that's a self fulfilling prophecy again.

It's like the [01:08:00] person that goes into every date thinking you're gonna get ghosted. And then you get ghosted. Exactly. The hard work, though, is looking at your own patterns. Like, I think acknowledging that maybe it's not a universal. But also like, how can I grow? How can I get better? Maybe it's looking at like, oh, I do kind of like retract when someone says something or I'm not giving the person the opportunity to be set up for success.

Whatever it is, how do you just make a tweak and see how that changes your dating life? Like think of it as like, date like a podcaster, like just get curious. Like this, whatever you're doing isn't working for whatever reason. Yeah. It's not a reflection of you, but just try something different. Yeah, I always recommend take a break.

I mean, yeah, and I'm like, take a break and fall in love with yourself. And I, I don't, that's not always the fastest journey, but like, it's so hard for me to look at people continue to put themselves out there and get hurt. When I really, really genuinely in my heart of hearts believe that if they [01:09:00]stopped.

stepped away, examined the behavior and committed to being like, you know what? I'm going to find such deep self love. Yes. That anyone could ghost me and I would look at that and be grateful. Yes. The best thing I did for my dating life was take a year off from dating. After my ex, like, I took a full freaking year.

And at the time, I was like, what am I doing? I'm gonna be like, slowed down. But honestly, that is what I needed to rebuild and to stop doing the same patterns that I've been doing and picking the same types of people that I've been picking. Right. Well, it's like farmland, you know, if you want to grow really healthy, vibrant crops, you have to let the earth...

Sit there and just do nothing. They're called fallow periods. And I believe in them for dating. Yes, a hundred percent. I love that. Well, my last question that I cannot wait to hear from both of you is Killer advice.

What is the best love or dating advice you've ever received? Oh, we've had so much. I've learned so much. [01:10:00] I'll go with something that's on point for this episode. I think there's a lid for every pot is one of our favorite sayings. Because we say this quite often. But I think that's what helps. I've heard you guys say this.

My partner's always like, you guys say this. I say that a lot, but I think it's really true. And that's what helps you get through ghosting. That's what helps you get through the dates that don't work out because there is someone out there that would never want to ghost you because they can't fathom that because you're amazing and they are dying to be with you.

So I think that's such good advice and to keep thinking that, keep that as your mantra. Like that's so helpful. Yeah, I love that. I love that too. I think, Another great piece of advice is, nothing is permanent. Yeah. The impermanence of life is what makes it both interesting and scary at times.

So instead of us trying to prolong things, like, I want to make this date last longer. I want to make this relationship last longer. I want to, you know, it's all about like the extending [01:11:00] the longevity of something. We have to focus more on the present. And making the best of what's present, because as we all know, things could change at the blink of an eye.

We just have no control of the future and nothing lasts forever, especially in love. So why don't we just appreciate what we have in the present? I love that. A little dark, but I love that. A little dark, yeah. A little dark. True. No, no, no. I get it. I mean, at the end of the day, let's say you... Marry the person you met in high school.

Yeah. What if he's gonna die first? Which has hap has happened to. It happens. It happens. People, it's the blessing and the curse of being a person alive on earth. So, yes. Mm-hmm. . I, I think that you're absolutely right. It's like focus on the present, love what we have in the moment, and it ties into. A lot of the things we talked about today. So for all of the people that just fell in love with you and want more of you, where do they find you? Anywhere, everywhere, in front of their house, inside their kitchen, we're [01:12:00] everywhere. You can find us on social media at dateable podcast.

You can go to dateable. Dateablepodcast. com, that's our website. You can just Google Dateable Podcast and we'll just come up in every platform you can possibly think of. Thank you so much for doing this.

This was a blast. I love you guys. Thanks for having us. Yes. I loved it.