Dry Humping with Tawny Lara

[00:13:00] Hello, friends, future friends, haters, and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Uphold, And I cannot even believe I'm about to say this, but the holidays are a officially upon us.

How in the world did that happen? I swear to God yesterday was March. I don't know how I managed to age four years this summer, but also March was yesterday. It's really weird. Anyway, with the holidays upon us, some of you might feel extra stress and pressure. It is a time when love, or really the lack thereof, feels even more personal. From showing up single, to family gatherings, or fighting with your significant other at holiday parties, to ringing in the new year hoping to find someone, anyone, to kiss at midnight, you might be fending off nosy questions from relatives, or maybe this is just a time of year that reminds you of the love you wish you had growing up.

Either way, it can be a tough time, and I want to acknowledge that and let you [00:14:00] know you are not alone. And for many of us, we might rely on a cocktail or two. or three to get us through. So I really wanted to drop this episode now for anyone who feels like alcohol might be a crutch that they are thinking about getting rid of or want to get rid of, but don't know where to start.

Maybe this is the pep talk you need, but also don't worry if alcohol is not an issue for you. There's still a lot of really cool advice in this episode. Ultimately, this is an episode about self love and confidence and regardless of whether you're going into this holiday season single or coupled, I want to remind you that self love will never let you down.

I mean, I also love you too. I really do. I am, I am so grateful for all of you that listen to this show and keep it alive. I think we can all be real that self love is really the well from which all of the other kinds of love spring from. And that's really what today is all about. Also, if you have not rated and reviewed the [00:15:00] show, uh, that would be a very cool thing to do.

It helps me out a ton, so quick, drop me those five stars and let me know how cute I am in the comments. Or just what you like about the show. And if you haven't signed up for the mailing list by going to the website listed in the show notes, you might want to because today's guest is generous enough to give us a copy of her book, Dry Humping.

So if you want to be the lucky winner entered to win a copy of this book, make sure you are signed up at the link in the show notes. Okay, without further ado, today's guest is a sober queen, the author of dry humping, a podcast host and advice columnist and a sober sexpert.

I am talking about none other than Tani Lara. Welcome to Crimes of the Heart.

Hello, my love. Thank you for having

Thank you for being here. Just to initially kick it off, I would love to know why did you write this book?

I wrote Dry Humping because I had [00:16:00] no freaking clue how to date, let alone have sex, when I was newly sober. And I am almost eight years sober now, and I've learned quite a few things on my own. just as a sober person and also as a journalist, I've interviewed so many other sober people and mental health professionals that have really helped this book come together.

Yeah, I love that. So what exactly is liquid courage?

Great question. liquid courage, for me, it just, it means relying on alcohol to make yourself feel more confident, feel yourself, make yourself feel more courageous, more flirtatious. more adventurous, you know, that, that, I used alcohol to feel all of those things. I also used it as a hack to, like, feel more vulnerable and just let myself feel emotions that I didn't normally let myself feel without alcohol.

I just, I really didn't have the courage to be myself at all [00:17:00] without alcohol until I got sober and I started therapy.

And do you think like when you were dating before you were sober? Was it an issue? it worked for you for a long time, right?

It, it did, and you know, and I actually, I acknowledge that alcohol helped me get through some really hard times, you know, in, in my book, I, I talk about how I'm not anti alcohol, alcohol really helped me get through, you know, what I now know were, um, I, I have chronic anxiety, I have PTSD, and alcohol was a form of escapism, a form of self medication, so I do want to acknowledge that.

I was just, I was just, Trying to survive, you know, But now that I have a proper mental health diagnosis and some distance, I'm able to see the role that I'm also able to see the damage that alcohol did to myself and to my relationships.

Hmm. when you say relationships, do you mean romantic relationships, or do you mean, your [00:18:00] friendships, your family, kind of 360?

Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously for the sake of this conversation and for the book, it's Written for romantic and sexual relationships, but so much of the advice and and personal experience translates to friendships, co worker relationships, family dynamics. It really is about, the book is about relationships in general.

Yeah, it's funny. One of my really good friends is sober. She's been in the program for, man, um, probably close to like six years now. And I know that your book is like a combination of what worked for you, which is not necessarily like one specific program. My friend did AA and it sort of saved her life.

I mean, it didn't sort of save her life. It saved her life.

It did. Yeah.

But what was so weird is I, as her friend, never knew how bad things were. You know, I think there's certain people, like, for me, when I think of an alcoholic, [00:19:00] it's what I've seen in the movies, or it's somebody that's outwardly struggling, whether that's, Their place is like a wreck, or they crash their car, or they get angry, or they throw up, or they cry, or they are terrible to the, you know, like, verbally abusive when they're drunk, something like that.

And what's so interesting is hers was so much more internal. we would have a really fun night out, and then I would not realize that she would be spiraling about it for days after the fact.

Yeah, and I mean, I so relate to your friend that that was definitely me. I didn't have This, you know, external rock bottom moment when I quit drinking, a lot of my friends and family were like, Oh, I didn't realize it was that bad. And so it's like, I have two things to say to that One, you never know what someone's dealing with on the inside.

And two, you don't have to hit rock bottom to re evaluate your relationship with alcohol. You can, I mean, that's why we have this Sober Curious [00:20:00] movement right now. A lot of people are waking up and realizing the role that alcohol plays in their lives. And maybe they don't quit drinking forever. Maybe they're just doing a dry month every once in a while.

It's just that we as a society, as a culture, are finally in a place where we're acknowledging the gray area, we're acknowledging nuance. You don't have to be an alcoholic to stop drinking. You don't have to go to rehab. You don't have to go to AA. You know, I don't identify as an alcoholic. I didn't go to rehab.

I didn't work any specific program, you know, I, realized that alcohol was a problem in my life, and I got my shit together with a lot of help, you know, and there's just, there's so many other ways, and I'm just, I'm so glad that you, you brought this up, because there is that disconnect of what you're saying in film and television, we see someone like, they lose everything, they lose their house, they're fired from their job, their family kicks them out of the house, That's that looks great on screen.

It's quite dramatic and cinematic and I do love some drama. [00:21:00] but that's that's not always the story. It's not always how it unfolds.

Yeah, I now know a lot more about it because we've talked about it at length, but it was, I think for her, a lot of like anxiety and it really amplified the negative talk. inner demons were screaming at her at a level that Only she could hear, but it was really I mean, the difference now is like she's married and she loves her life and she's a homeowner and she has a great job and you know, like things really drastically changed for her.

And not that that's the be all and end all, but those were things that she wanted and now she has them and it's, it's just been interesting because the first person I thought I was ever going to marry, like I really, he was like the um, you know, He was the heartbreak that kind of, caused all the trauma. One day, years into dating, he was like, So, I'm an AA. And I was like, What? What are you talking about? And he was like, Oh, [00:22:00] I'm an alcoholic. And I was like, No, you're not. Like, I literally don't know what you're talking about. And he was like, Oh, well, so, you know how, We'll go out to dinner and have a drink.

And I'm like, Yeah. He's like, Well, then I want to do cocaine and heroin.

Yeah,

And I was like, holy shit. I mean, that was the beginning of the end for us. And it had nothing to do with sobriety and everything to do with the fact that he really did have this other life that I knew nothing about. And that included, you know, lots of other things like another girlfriend, but, I guess that was like my first experience with being with somebody where. I had no idea. Like, how could this monster be living inside of someone and torturing them? And I just had no idea. And I think, the idea of a, or the notion of a functioning alcoholic is It's really hard to, to pin down.

it is. And I appreciate you sharing that. And I mean, it's this is why I shout from the rooftops about mental health because we're not just talking about alcohol and like sober dating here. We're [00:23:00]talking about, all of this goes back to mental health, like you're talking about your friend and this guy you were seeing, they were dealing with some internal shit.

It was really heavy. And alcohol abuse, drug abuse. is very rarely the problem. It's usually a symptom of a much larger problem, and that is usually something that has to do with their mental health, shame, stigma, undiagnosed mental health issues, anything like that. So, you know, and that is why I'm saying, When I was actively drinking, when I was binge drinking until I blacked out, yeah, I was having a good time.

I was partying. I was dancing on bars. Like, I was, I I was, like, living my best life, but I didn't care about myself. I didn't love myself. I did not respect myself. So the people that I let around me in my circle, in my mind, in my body, Also didn't respect me because I didn't know how to set boundaries.

I didn't know how to communicate. I didn't know how to advocate for my own pleasure. I was just performing. I was [00:24:00] trying to be this version of myself that I thought I should be. So of course I'm going to have toxic relationships because I'm not being my authentic self.

Yeah, that's so interesting. This is like a little bit of a tangent, but we'll get back on track. I've said this before. I saw a psychic once who asked me if I have any frenemies and I was like, Ma'am, I live in Los Angeles. Obviously I have frenemies. And she was like, cut them out because as humans, were constantly taking in energy.

It's not like we can filter that. So if you're around somebody that doesn't wish you the best, you cannot help, but also internalize. Taking that in. So you're taking in this energy where they don't wish you the best. And the reason why I thought of that is you talking about... And it doesn't have to be that extreme.

I think even if you're masking with alcohol just a little bit, or your insecurities aren't level 10, but maybe they're level 5, and that [00:25:00] behavior is going to attract... People that also don't believe that you're the best or don't honor your boundaries, right? And then that's kind of like a self perpetuating cycle.

exactly, you're, everything you're saying is correct, and also, these people weren't respecting me, and they were most likely not respecting themselves. So we were really just having these, whether it was friends or romantic relationships, sexual partners, whatever. We were really the worst versions of ourselves together because we didn't know what the fuck we were doing.

We didn't know who we actually were because we let drugs and alcohol and all this other societal pressure guide us. And it, of course, that's going to lead to some toxicity. I mean, like I said, I have A lot of distance now and a lot of tools to where I've learned to forgive myself and love that, that really insecure young girl who thought she had to do all these things to get attention.

Um, [00:26:00] it's, it's still a significant amount of work at almost eight years in recovery. I'm, it's something that I still work on every day.

So you've mentioned sober curious and you've just mentioned in recovery and in your book, you said that there's a difference between being sober versus alcohol free versus booze free versus in recovery and versus sober curious. And before we like really, you know, get into this conversation, could you just give the audience?

An overview of what those differences are.

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the sober curious movement is, it was the, the term Sober Curious was coined by Ruby Warrington. She quite literally wrote the book Sober Curious, and that term just took, , took the World by Storm, and it's, everyone knows it now. and she really gave a word, a voice, a community to this group, a large group of people who don't necessarily wanna go to aa.

maybe they're not done drinking, maybe they still want to drink, [00:27:00] but they're just They know something's up. They want to reevaluate their relationship with alcohol. They, we had nowhere to go before we had a term like sober curious. You either drink or you go to AA. That was, that was our option back then.

Um, so Ruby really created this gray area that a lot of people latched onto. So that's a little bit of the background of the term. And so for some type of sober curious people, they might do dry January. They might do something now that's called dry dating, where people still drink alcohol, but they just don't drink when dating is when they're not bringing alcohol into their dating lives or their sex lives until they've really gotten to know someone.

it's just people are just being more mindful about their relationship with alcohol right now. sober curious is really just, I think, another word for mindful drinker. and then someone like myself, I'm in recovery. I am in recovery from substance use disorder, and that means that I've, I was self [00:28:00]medicating.

With, uh, with alcohol. I was self medicating anxiety, depression, PTSD with alcohol and drugs and all sorts of other self destructive behaviors. And I will, I will say sober curiosity was kind of my gateway into recovery. I found a place where I could be sober curious. And then being sober curious.

Got me into therapy. Being sober curious got me into learning more about why I drink and what and and, you know, again, for the sake of this book, the way that alcohol shows up in my interpersonal relationships. and so those are the two big terms, like in recovery and sober curious. Does that make sense at all?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. That makes a lot of

sense. so, when do you tell people you don't drink?

like me personally, Or like

for

personally, or someone that's listening that's Maybe they still drink. Maybe they want to stop drinking. maybe they feel the [00:29:00] pressure to drink on dates, but don't really want to, you know, how do you go about telling somebody that you don't even know? That you don't drink it. Do you do it on the app?

Do you do it in person? you know, how do you do it in a way that isn't awkward or maybe it is such a firm boundary that that's something you do want to be like, Nope, this isn't a non negotiable. You know, I think everybody's different, but I would love to hear your answer.

And then I can tell you my specific, very weird relationship with alcohol.

sure. so there's actually a whole chapter that answers this question, a whole chapter in my book about basically how to set up your dating profile as a sober or sober curious person. I explained three different approaches. There's probably more, but, you know, the first is, you know, you could just be very open.

Just say, I, I don't drink. Like, you could say, I'm in recovery. I'm sober curious. I don't drink. You could be very upfront about it. you could also wait until you get to, you guys have maybe DM'd for a little bit, maybe FaceTimed. You can wait until you feel [00:30:00] a little bit more comfortable with them before you share something like that.

for me. I'm a Capricorn. I like to be a very efficient. I was when I was dating, I led with it. I was like, I don't drink. And for me, that was an excellent filter, because I was fine dating someone who drank. But surprisingly, a lot of people were not fine dating someone sober. So I found it to be a lot easier to just be upfront.

You could also wait until you're in person. Maybe you wait until the first date, second date, or after you've had a couple dates. I, I think it just, I hate to be that person who says the answer is different for each person, because I also wanna acknowledge that quote unquote, coming out as sober, curious to your date is very different than coming out as in recovery, just got out of rehab.

You know, it, these are two very different things. So I think it's, I think it's very important for [00:31:00] the person to know what feels right for them, which is why the very first chapter of my book is called Dating Yourself, because as corny as it sounds, you have to get to know who you are and fall in love with yourself before you go on the apps, before you start dating.

otherwise it's, you're gonna just most likely repeat these same toxic patterns.

Hmm. When you say dating yourself, like, if I'm listening to this and let's just assume everyone is going to buy your book, but can we give people an example of, what you mean and also why this is so critical, regardless of whether you decide to continue drinking or not drink?

Yeah, absolutely. So when I say dating yourself, it's not just like self care and bubble baths and, face masks. Well, that's great. Like I definitely that that's fun. And I think everyone should do that. I'm talking about getting to know who you are without alcohol. And that's the work that, will help you on your dating journey.

So like some [00:32:00] specific examples. for myself, when I quit drinking, I had a significant amount of free time and I had a lot more money because I wasn't going out and racking up expensive bar tabs and drinking until I blacked out and doing a bunch of stupid shit and spending stupid money. You know, I just, my life changed when I quit drinking.

so with the surplus of time and money, I, I took a lot of classes. I studied writing. I studied Spanish. studying these things that I always said I would do one day. they really helped me feel more confident about myself. I became a better writer, I became better in Spanish, you know.

So, these are just two examples that I used for myself. Like, the more confident I felt about myself, the more confident I felt on dates, the more confident I felt in the bedroom, and the more confident I now feel when having a conversation with my partner because I've learned, I've... You know, in in my book, I talk about replacing liquid courage with intrinsic [00:33:00] courage, and this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Getting to know who you are and fall in love with who you are without alcohol, that is going to help you in all of your interpersonal relationships. It's because it's, that's real confidence. It's not liquid courage. It's not just you take a shot and you feel more confident. this is real confidence that comes from a great deal of work and self love.

And I know that sounds really corny, but this is, it works.

No, it doesn't sound corny to me at all. I mean, I'm the type of person that all of the craziest shit I've ever done, I've done sober, but that's just my personality. Like I truly am pretty fearless when it comes to doing a lot of things. And so I never needed alcohol. Like I didn't need it as an excuse, do you know what I'm saying?

But I understand how a lot of people do. To me, the most profound thing in your book, you talk about asking yourself why you drink. So it's like, why do I drink? Oh, because it's [00:34:00] fun. Well, why is it fun? constantly peeling back that layer or why do I want to drink if I feel like we might have sex or why do I want to drink on a first date?

is it because I'm nervous? Well, why am I nervous? maybe because I'm worried he or she won't like me. Okay. Well, why am I worried that he or she won't like me? It's like getting to the heart of what are these like deeply rooted insecurities or shame. Okay. Or the secrets that we are keeping about ourself and like basically looking at that no pun intended in the sober light of day and being like, okay, so these are the things that I'm the most afraid of or turned off about myself and just sort of sitting with them.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, it's like, kind of like when a little kid, starts asking why. They're like, why? You tell them, why is the sky blue? I don't know, the sky is just blue. Why? Why? Why? And it's like, I think that's that's also just me as a journalist. I've never stopped asking why. [00:35:00] So that really helped me learn more about myself because I kept asking myself.

Why, why do I think drunk sex is better? Why do I think having a beer or three before a date is better? Like you just said, I was peeling back these layers and then once I really got to the root of it, of all of this, it's these insecurities. It's unprocessed trauma.

It's undiagnosed mental health issues. It's, it's all of these things that I was struggling with that I just didn't have language for. But for some reason... It just, everything just felt a little easier with a couple drinks.

Hmm. Yeah. I think that most people can relate to that. I have CFS, which is chronic fatigue. It's like the original long haul COVID. So I don't know. I got a virus at some point and never, my body never cleared it. And then I, I've experienced a myriad of health issues that come and go.

I have flares, autoimmune style stuff and the medicine that changed my life is [00:36:00] naltrexone Which gets used at a hundred times the dose that I use to treat alcoholics But also it was originally for heroin

Hmm.

and so I take 4. 5 as opposed to four hundred and fifty milligrams of this anti narcotic and It really helps me with neuroinflammation, immunity, all of those things. But after I was on it for about a year, one of the side effects I noticed was that I do not get buzzed.

Yeah, that makes

sense.

I can get, drunk, but I cannot get buzzed. most people listening are like, Oh yeah, like I love to have a glass of wine. You get that kind of warm, tingly feeling.

everything's a little looser, more giggly, whatever it is. I don't get that. I physically, the chemicals just do not release. And it was a really wild realization that happened sort of doing COVID because I started dating the boyfriend that I was with at that time. And he's a pretty big drinker and we would go get hammered and Um, have [00:37:00] sex and it was fun and whatever.

And I don't think that I ever had a problem with alcohol. it was not something that was ever an issue in my life. but halfway through COVID, I just never wanted to drink. Like I never have the craving to drink alcohol. And so if you see me with a drink, it's cause I genuinely like the taste of it. Or I'm trying to get drunk. I've just decided I want to get drunk. You know, one of the two, um, one of the two, but he was like, what happened to you? You used to be so fun.

drink anymore. And I was like, yeah, I don't want to, because I genuinely, it did something with the chemicals in my brain.

Like if you don't, if you can't get buzzed or you don't get that elated feeling, I normally get dehydrated before I ever get drunk, which is

such

that frustrating? Is that frustrating?

Yeah, you know sometimes it's Like, sometimes I want to be able to have one or two drinks and just get, a little tipsy, giggly, whatever, with my friends. [00:38:00] It's more with my friends than it is with, with dates. whatever in your mind is, like, the wildest thing to do sexually, whether it's, like, the most vulnerable or the most kinky or whatever, I've done that all sober.

if I'm doing that introspection that we're talking about, like, why do you miss it? It's like, I think because I can't have it. I think it's as simple as that because nine times out of 10, I don't mind it. I don't miss it. I think because I can't have it, but I'll tell you this, if I'm choosing between having that feeling or that experience and my health, there's no question. I don't regret it at all, But it is weird. I have the insight of being a person that kind of walks through the world. Almost sober.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's funny you say that because when I started to date sober, I was so nervous to, to tell people I didn't drink and, or just even making friends or whatever. And then, I met people like yourself who just like don't really drink that much. They could take it or leave it.

You know, like they just really [00:39:00] have, they'll drink every once in a while. And I was just like, Oh, I didn't realize people drink like that. I didn't know that was an option. And some people just don't drink. Like some people just truly, maybe they don't like alcohol. They have religious or spiritual affiliations where they don't want to drink.

They're, a lot of people in the fitness and wellness community just don't. Don't drink because their body is their temple. Like, I never even thought about any of that because I was just in this insular party world. And when I met people outside of my traditional world, my mind was blown because some people were just, if I told them I didn't drink, they're like, yeah, me neither.

I was like, oh, okay. It's not that big of a deal.

You're like, wait, what is happening? Yeah. I, my friend Corey's never had a drink in his life. It has nothing to do with religious or fitness or anything. He just hasn't and doesn't plan on it. You

They just, some people just don't. It's

yeah, yeah.

it's a magic trick to me.

, it's funny that you say that because the friend that I was saying that's in recovery, came [00:40:00]over to my house and I have.

Wow, I guess I shouldn't be admitting this to the whole world, but I keep, um, a box of party supplies. I'll just say that for guests in case they're interested in dabbling in an assortment of things. And she came over to my house and she was like, I'm sorry, you just have this like in your house? And I was like, yeah.

And she was like, that's, that was the moment I realized you were not an addict

because

yeah.

do that in my house.

You were such a nice host.

Well, yeah, I like to, I have a fully stocked bar. I have, you know, just, I want people to be comfortable. And if that involves whatever it involves, you know, you do you.

So for people that are listening that don't even know where to start, and I don't mean interpersonally, but like with sober, curious, or dry dating, which I'd never heard of that term, and I love that, you know, for me, one of the guys, man, somebody that I just adored, our whole relationship was he [00:41:00] is a professional musician and he's a classical musician, so he worked every night, so our relationship existed during the day.

And when we first started dating, we went on long walks, we talked in the park, we went to several museums, we did a lot of stuff during the day, which was, of course, all sober. But do you have any ideas for, other potential date ideas for people? Because to me, I imagine that's probably the most intimidating thing.

Yeah, I love this question. Alcohol free date ideas is actually the longest chapter in my book because dating is inherently alcohol free. We just have been socialized to think that let's grab a drink is the only date option. So, My, my top sober date ideas are literally everything that you just suggested.

Do something experiential. Go to a museum. Go to a botanical garden. Go to the zoo. Go for a walk. Just go do something. because for, for two [00:42:00] big reasons. One, it's, it's an activity where just sitting and even just getting coffee is kind of similar to just grabbing a beer. You're just staring at each other, sitting down.

where are you from? Where did you grow up? What kind of music do you listen to? where if you're doing something experiential, then that really opens the space for interesting conversation where you're able to talk about this piece of art that you're looking at. You're able to talk about the butterflies in the botanical garden or you know what you're able to talk about what you're and maybe a memory that it brings up or what what a certain Texture or color means to you and that's going to lead to just more interesting conversation and, you know, on the third point, going on a date that incorporates movement like that and and external stimulation is going to help you get rid of some of those first date jitters.

You're not going to be as anxious. I mean, you will be anxious, but [00:43:00] you're, you're physically getting it out of your body where if you're just sitting in a bar having drinks, if you're sitting in a coffee shop having coffee or tea, you're just sitting, I would just sit there and like pick at my nails, tap my foot, like I fucking hated it, but I needed dates that had some form of activity or external stimulation because I felt like it took, it took the pressure off of me and the dates were just more fun anyway.

Yeah, that's so true. I also am such a big proponent of the FaceTime. I always tell people... Hey, I want to FaceTime vibe check just to make sure, I don't waste your time. So I like put it on so that it doesn't seem so like, Hey, I want to FaceTime and to make sure you look like your photos or whatever, because it's not all about that.

I do think you get a sense of somebody's vibe from a FaceTime, even though it's not in person. I think for some people, they're like, well, a drink, a coffee feels too casual. I just had a friend upset that the guy wanted to do a coffee [00:44:00] date. And I was like, what? I don't understand. And I hear this rhetoric on TikTok too, where I'm like, just is that because it's a a money, like a price thing, or is it because it's during the day?

It's like, it feels less sexy. I'm not a hundred percent sure where the disconnect is, but I was like, this is kind of great. And like you said, you're sitting across from each other. I just said, why scrap the coffee? Why not do a FaceTime? And then if you realize that you like each other enough to actually go meet in person, then yeah, you can invest in an activity, whether it's.

Hey, let's go to a flea market and shop for vintage teas or I don't know, let's go to a comedy show and then get a proper dinner after or whatever, you know, something that is going to be more of a time investment, but then you've already done the initial kind of get to know you over FaceTime or zoom or, or whatever, to me, I like that, but I also feel like I got catfished and I was like, never again, [00:45:00] never again.

But I mean, you're, you're so right. Um, I'm sorry you got catfish. That sucks.

Oh, it's

But, um, You're correct on the like the screening of doing a face time or a zoom. And I think we, you know, we all saw that during the pandemic, we all got very comfortable doing zoom dates and catch ups and just activities. and I know a lot of people still, like you're saying, like to do that.

The vibe check. Let's just face time for like 10 minutes and see, is there chemistry here? And I like how, I like how you said you kind of put it on to them, like, make sure that I'm not, I don't want to waste your time, I like that approach, and I think another perk to doing a FaceTime or a zoom date is for people who do have social anxiety That could really be a good way to help them feel more comfortable before hanging out IRL.

Mm

Yeah. I, I agree with that. So on that tip, I think that the nightcap is a famed transition line. Like, Hey, do you [00:46:00] want to come to mine for a nightcap? Or should we get one last drink at my place instead of being like, Hey, I want to fuck. Like when I come to my house, I don't know. There's something a little more suave about saying nightcap when That is just an invitation in, pun intended.

So,

do You have suggestions for people that are like, I don't really know how to take it from the date to starting to make things a little more sexual if I don't have that as an excuse? I felt that when I quit smoking. Suddenly I was like, Oh my God, how, how do I meet people? Like, how am I going to have these conversations with people in bars?

My identity was so wrapped around me being a smoker for so long that I, I genuinely felt like naked and lost. Obviously I got over that. I haven't smoked for years and at this point you couldn't pay me to put a cigarette in my mouth, but for a very, very long time, you know, I just, what would I do at parties?

What would I do at bars? You know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean the the nightcap thing is so real[00:47:00] You know, you say you have a fully stocked bar for your guests. I love that. I have a fully stocked, non alcoholic bar and, you know, there's the non alcoholic drink scene is thriving right now. and I will say that, Keep the tradition of the nightcap going No one ever said a nightcap has to include alcohol. A nightcap can be let's split a pot of tea. A nightcap could be having some nonalcoholic beers. there's nonalcoholic tequilas and like there's there's so many options. Quick plug, my, my fiancé and I just launched our own non alcoholic botanical beverage called Parentheses.

Um, so yeah, so I would just say keep the nightcap going. keep the ritual. There's something really classic and kind of romantic and hot about the nightcap ritual. Just swap it out. Just use a different liquid.

Yeah. I also think there's something to be said for just be vulnerable. I know that most of the book is kind of about this. It's about getting to the [00:48:00] core of, Your own personal courage and vulnerability and dealing with your own insecurities. And I think, you know, you could also just say, Hey, I'm, I'm actually not ready for this date to end. Or,

I love that.

you know, like something as simple as that, because I think when we're saying, Hey, do you want to have a nightcap? What we're not saying is I really like you and I want to put my mouth on you and see where this goes and why not? Why can't we just say that? I think that

we're in this era of like being more honest.

So why not just be more honest?

be more honest. And I mean, you could also say like, I'd like you to come upstairs. Would you like to come upstairs with me? You know, like, there's just, there's a lot of ways to say that. There's a lot of ways to invite someone up. It doesn't have to be for a drink. It doesn't, if, if you're scared of that vulnerability,

totally. Yeah. Well, on that note, sober sex. I think that that is scary for a lot of people. Regardless of [00:49:00] whether someone's going to drink or not, Give me some reasons, to advocate for sober sex.

Yeah, I mean, for me, when I drank, I was performing, I, I became this version that I thought of myself that I thought I should be, and that absolutely showed up in the bedroom. for me, I thought drunk sex was better because I was less inhibited and more courageous and freakier and, I thought those things meant better.

Yeah. And then I got sober and I realized I actually didn't want to do a lot of the stuff that I did in bed. I did it because I thought I should. I thought it was my role as a woman to do certain things. And, like I said, I had a good time, don't get me wrong. I had fun, but there was definitely a lot of performance involved.

I faked a fuckload of orgasms. And I did... Positions that I learned in porn that I thought would make a guy like me more, you know, it was just I was just really trying. I was really [00:50:00] just begging for external validation. I was so insecure. I just really wanted to be liked and touched. and I had to learn how to date, and I had to learn how to have sex all over again without alcohol. because I was introduced to sex and dating the same time I was introduced to alcohol, you know? So, the majority of my sex life, you know, you start kissing and fooling around at like 15, 14, 16, whatever.

and that's also when I started drinking, And I quit drinking at 29, so I had like 15 years of like, this different version of myself. So I had to, I had to really ask myself, what do I want a date to look like? What do I want sex to be? Who do I want to be with? Who do I want to be in bed?

And that, those answers are going to be different for every single person. And I totally acknowledge why so many of us rely on liquid courage because sex is terrifying. It's scary. It's vulnerable. I mean, what is more vulnerable than being naked with someone else?

[00:51:00] Stand up. Sorry. That's just like a very, that's a very personal answer.

No, that's fair. There's, there's a guy here in New York that does naked, he does naked stand up shows. Have you done that?

I've never done a naked standup show, I have such great tits that I feel like there's just, you know, I don't know if I could put a price on them.

hell yeah.

What

a good answer.

They're priceless. They're priceless. You know what I mean?

I feel the same way about my boobs. I am so grateful to have like really nice, naturally, round and perky boobs. I'm very grateful to have that and Yeah, just shout, shout out to our tits. Mm

100. Um, you said something that I thought was awesome and it's, what do I want my sex to be? And I don't, I've never been asked that. I don't think. Most people have thought about that, especially [00:52:00] women or femme presenting, and I think that's such a valuable question to ask is what do I actually want this experience to be like, you know, what, what am I looking to feel?

What am I looking to do? And how do I want it to be from beginning, middle to end? You know, I think something That is often neglected is aftercare and that's something that's obviously big in in kink communities and fetish communities but not so much it's just not part of the normal conversation around sex and it totally should be because aftercare doesn't mean that you have to be necessarily in love with someone.

It does involve intimacy, a different kind of intimacy, but I also feel like if you can't provide the aftercare, then we probably shouldn't be having sex to begin with.

Well, let's, let's explain aftercare to anyone that doesn't know what that is. So it's It really is just, caring for each other after the act, so that could look, that could look anything like [00:53:00] checking in, how was it for you, or do you feel satisfied, does anything feel like it's missing, is there anything you would like me to do, it could also mean, I really liked when you did this, next time let's try this, or it could even just mean snuggling and being present with each other and just whatever the hell you want it to mean. And I wish more people incorporated those kinds of conversations before and after. I think the before is more common in the queer community

people can go into sex saying, I'm into this. I'm not into this. I'm down to possibly trying this. That's a very normal pre sex conversation for queer folks. It hasn't quite made it into the hetero community yet. especially for women. but I think conversations like this help make those make those future conversations possible.

Yeah. I mean, it's not a shock that, It's definitely a part of my sex life, but I've also talked about this before, you know, a lot of [00:54:00] guys are really shocked. They're really shocked by the questions that I ask, by the boundaries that I set, and I guess the openness and the frankness. I Am someone that can have casual sex, and I'm okay with that. That is not for everyone, and I like to stress that, because not everybody should be doing that. You should be doing what is comfortable for you. And that is comfortable for me. Not all the time, but sometimes. And in the times that it is, you know, I still want to have aftercare, even if I don't plan on ever seeing this person again. Because to

me, that makes the sexual experience, I feel like it's beginning, middle, and end. You know, that's the movie.

it is. It's the whole movie. That's that's exactly what I was going to say is these conversations can also happen in the middle. You know, it's check checking in. How does this feel? Is this okay? Are you okay? I would like to try this. Is that okay with you? There's a whole chapter in my book about, P. T. S. D. Sexual P. T. S. D. Because a lot of folks, including myself, when we get sober or just remove [00:55:00] alcohol from our sex and dating lives for a little bit, we like I personally came to terms with dealing with my own sexual P.

T. S. D. And feeling really feeling that, no longer disassociating from my body, learning how to be fully present in the bedroom, learning how to tell my partner, hey I need to hit, I need to press pause for a minute, I'm, I'm feeling a little triggered, These are the conversations that we need to have and we were not taught this in school.

We were not taught this anywhere, so, especially for women, so I think it's, it's such the, the sexual PTSD angle is so important that I gave it its own chapter because there's a great deal of before, during, and after care that has to happen if you or your sexual partner is in recovery from PTSD.

Yeah, we could do a whole episode on just that. but I guess the one thing that I'd love for you to touch on is did [00:56:00] you begin to address that? I know we can't, we can't solve this for somebody that's listening, but we might be able to help them get on the path. Because like, a lot of what I'm hearing you say is alcohol gets used as a mask a lot of the time.

And sometimes it's masking something as, simple. As, say, just nerves, which, you know, excitement and nervousness are the same thing. That's the same chemical response. It's just our brain that tells us, we're actually afraid. so that's, that's a great perspective shift, but it can also be something masking these darker things like you're talking about with you and some PTSD, some trauma, and. What would you say is like a good first step?

Yeah. I mean, I, I think for me, the, the big, the big moment was when I came to terms with, with my past, coming to terms with my past, admitting what happened to myself, talking about it in therapy and with people that I could trust. [00:57:00] that gave me my agency back. That gave me control. Of my own sex life again.

It gave me control of, that was part of my, you know, like we said, what do I want my sexual experiences to be? This was a big part of that. I know what I don't want it to be, and I know what I do want it to be. And there are still times when I have to hit pause during sex. I'm just like, I, I, I need, I need to, I need to, I need a breather for a minute.

You know, and I would have never advocated for myself before. Like, I would have never advocated for myself before that. And, This is a great filter, you know, if you are being intimate with someone and you are trying to advocate for yourself, for your safety, and they're just trying to get it over with, or saying like, I'm almost finished, let's just keep going.

They're not worth your time. They are literally not worth your time, your mind, your body, your energy. If they're, they're literally only prioritizing their orgasm instead of taking care of, sex is like, it's a two way, it's a two plus street, everyone involved needs [00:58:00] to be consenting at all times. So if you are, if you need a break, if you need to stop, and the person wants to keep going, Get the fuck out of there.

Like, that person does not deserve access to you. and again, I wish somebody would have told me that a long ass time ago. I wish I didn't have to learn that on my own. but this is why I wrote this book.

I was just gonna say part of you learning it on your own, though, is so that you can help teach other people. You know, so, I hear you. There's things that I'm like, must I learn this the hard way?

Um, but it's like, yes, yes, you must. Yes, you must. I want to circle back to something you said earlier, you talked about confidence, and you were talking about these hobbies, like, Speaking Spanish, I guess, is that a hobby?

It's a skill. and writing, which is now a job. but the more you did it, the more confident you got. And I would also say that, for me, it's like the more I advocate for myself, not only the easier it becomes, but the more confident. Because there's something, it's like a little trick where when you [00:59:00] honor your boundaries and you keep that promise to yourself, It really builds self love and everybody's journey with trauma, specifically sexual trauma, is going to be different.

But I do think a lot of us, get that love chipped away at. And so part of the process of healing is learning to fall in love with yourself again and rebuild that self love. And so I do think as scary as it is, if it's as simple as saying, Hey, I actually, don't want to drink tonight or as scary as saying, I need a break in the middle of having sex right before your partner might be ready to orgasm.

Um, that is an act of deep self love and self care. And the more you practice that, the easier it'll get, but it also is going to build confidence.

Yeah, that, and that's the thing is like, you know, all these, these corny things that, you know, we, we heard growing up and our caregivers hopefully [01:00:00] told us, like, if they're not gonna be nice to you, then they're not really your friend, that's true. Like, that is 1, 000 percent true.

But part of it is also like you have to be nice to you too, right? Like what we're also talking about is yes, that treatment, but then you also can't expect people to start treating you like a princess if you're treating yourself like a clown.

yes, that's, that's exactly it. People didn't respect me and treat me with kindness and love until I did all of those things for myself. And that's, this all sounds so corny, but that's just, that's just the reality. This is why this, this advice is cliche for a reason.

It's because there's been thousands of books sharing that particular piece of advice. You know, you have to make peace with who you are. You have to make peace with your past. You have to... Stand up for what you want your future to be and otherwise life is just going to happen to you.

Yeah. So on that note, I have dated some alcoholics. I didn't realize it like at the time or sometimes I did realize it actually. Actually, I did sometimes [01:01:00] realize it. There's one very in particular, I think, I think he is the one that gave me a complex because he would binge drink and then he would embarrass me.

And so now my tolerance for partners that get really drunk, like I don't do well. I don't do well, even with friends, like it makes me so uncomfortable. I have a lot of anxiety and yeah. Man, you have some great advice for avoiding arguments when you're drunk, but I would also, and I would love to hear that.

And on that same note, like what do you do if you're in a relationship or you're dating someone and, you feel like alcohol is a problem.

Yeah, I mean, I would say my biggest piece of advice. This it's so tricky. You cannot decide if someone else has a drinking problem.

It's not up to you. It's a very personal thing. What you can do is you can decide if someone else is drinking. is problematic for you. If someone else's drinking makes you feel uncomfortable or triggered or kissing someone when they taste like whiskey makes you want [01:02:00] whiskey, you have to know how these things make, these external environments make you feel.

And then, then it's up to you to decide if you want to work with this person and try to make that relationship work or if you have to get out. Just because you stop drinking doesn't mean other everyone's life is going to keep going, you know, and you have to keep the people in your life that are going to meet you where you are.

If you might be okay with having a partner who drinks and if they respect you, you figure out what you want. Maybe there's no alcohol in the house. Maybe they only drink when they're out with their friends and they sleep on the couch when they come home. You know, you figure out what, what works for you too.

And like I said, the usually, you have to figure out if their drinking is a problem for you.

That's what you do. You cannot make someone else quit drinking or be sober curious with you.

So if they come home, do you suggest I bring it up then or should I sleep on it and bring it up the next morning? And Is the language, you're drinking is a [01:03:00] problem because, or is there a better way that I could phrase that?

Yeah, great. No, great question. I mean, I would advise to never argue with a drunk person, drunk or buzzed. and I would never I would just lead with I statements. I would wait until the next morning or when you guys are in a good headspace, and I would say, you know, when you blank, I feel blank. when you come home drunk, I feel ignored, unsafe, insecure, triggered, and that it really can be One sentence like that,

you know, ,

in my experience, it's really hard, to not fight with somebody that's drunk. especially if you're also drunk. You know, but I've had very few arguments. get resolved in a way that is satisfying when both of us have been drinking.

So I

do

don't, and and

avoid, definitely avoid, like, always statements, like, you always this, you never this, every time you this, you don't, like, no one ever wants to be talked to that way, [01:04:00] ever. So, just, just, it's, it's going to be very difficult, but just, When you feel comfortable, have that conversation.

Maybe you have to write it down. Maybe you have to, have a practice conversation with a friend, these are important conversations and the longer you ignore them, they really are just going to get pushed under the rug.

And. You have to, like that corny saying, put your oxygen mask on first, you have to take care of yourself first. If you keep putting this other person, I don't want to upset this person, I don't, everything's going so great, I don't want to bring up an unpleasant conversation. Fair, that's totally fair, but don't decide that it's going to be an unpleasant conversation before you even have it.

It may not be an unpleasant conversation, and even if the conversation takes a dark turn, you've stood up for yourself, and that's fucking cool. A lot of people don't do that.

Yeah. I was just going to say, like, when you avoid things, I always like to say at what cost,

Mm

like, I don't want to have this awkward conversation because things are going so well. And it's like, okay, but [01:05:00] what's the cost of that?

Yeah.

is that what is it costing you? Because like when you do that, you're basically again, not being that good friend to yourself that's coming at your own expense, right?

That's you silencing, shoving down your issues, feelings, your boundaries, you're softening your boundaries. Speaking of coming at like what cost you said something, and I'd love for you to speak on it more like a great way to dip your toe. Thank into evaluating or reevaluating your relationship to drinking is to ask yourself, what does drinking give me and what does it take away?

what are the pros? What are the cons? What is the cost? What is the expense of drinking and what is it offering me?

the number one question that I get in my line of work is how do I feel more confident without alcohol? And my answer to that is going to be the same as the answer to what you just told me or what you just asked me.

Being sober or sober curious in an alcohol free [01:06:00] soaked world

 It is one of the most confident things you can do. That is the confidence that I encourage everyone to take to dates. Take that confidence into the bedroom, and take that confidence with you when you need to have uncomfortable conversations with people. that's the intrinsic courage that I'm talking about.

You decided to stop drinking, or you decided to do a dry month, for a reason. That's the shit that you need to like, carry with you everywhere you go. And I, I will be shocked if you are not more confident with that.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think it's kind of like, I hate to say this because it's such a, it's the easiest analogy, but I don't love it because I don't love diet culture. But if you say my diet starts tomorrow, my diet starts tomorrow and you don't do it and like a week or two goes by and you keep saying my diet starts tomorrow, but then you don't do it, it makes you kind of feel like shit about yourself.

But if you say my diet starts tomorrow and then you wake up on that Monday and you do whatever. The quote unquote diet entails and then [01:07:00] you do a Tuesday and then you do a Wednesday and then you do a Thursday and you go out to dinner with your friends and whatever and you stick to it. You're like, damn, I am unstoppable.

I am Beyonce. Like, you know what I mean? You feel Amazing. And I think it goes back to kind of what we were talking about building confidence, but confidence is keeping the promises you make with yourself and building on that. And knowing when I say I'm going to do something, I can trust myself.

That I'm going to do that, and I'm going to have my back. And I, I love that. Whether it's just for a week, whether it's just for a night, or maybe it's your whole lifetime. just start there. Maybe that is where people can, if they're remotely curious about being sober curious, think about what is that promise?

Like leaving this episode. Do you just want to see if you can get through a day? Do you want to do it for a week? Do you want to do it for a month? Like, what is the promise that you're going to make to yourself?

Yeah, and that's, that's literally it, then that's, that's why we say, those of us in recovery, that's [01:08:00] why we say one day at a time, because the thought of never drinking again, that's a crazy thing to think about, that's a very overwhelming thought.

Mm

So we say one day at a time,

and that same thing, apply that to Dating, relationships, interpersonal relationships in general. It's one interaction at a time, one date at a time, one sexual experience at a time. You just really have to keep, just keep going. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and really, really tapping into that inner confidence and stop relying on liquid courage.

You don't need it.

So I asked all of my guests this, what is the best lover dating advice you've ever received?

You, you have to meet people where they are. you can't change people. you know what? Never fall in love with potential. I think that's probably the best dating advice.

And that really comes, and, and from never falling in love with potential, that is meeting people where they are, and that just means, don't start dating a fixer upper. No [01:09:00] one wants to be fixed up, you know, don't take on projects. If you're taking on, I did this. I took on projects because I realized that I didn't want to work on myself.

Stop working on other people and work on yourself.

Amen. Yes. I a hundred percent can relate. Agree. I love that. This has been such an illuminating conversation. If people want to learn more about you or find out more about sober dating or sober sex, where do they find you? How can they read more of you?

my book, Dry Humping, is available everywhere, literally all over the world. in bookstores and online. And, head to Instagram, Tawny M. Lara, where you'll get, you know, up to date everything that I'm working on. and the the advice column that I mentioned, Beyond Liquid Courage. when people submit questions about alcohol free sex dating and relationships. And, that's a weekly advice column that comes out every Wednesday, hump day, of course. And, uh, I also, I co host a podcast called Recovery Rocks, where we talk about recovery [01:10:00] and rock and roll.

I love it. Tawny, thank you so much. I'll link to your book below.

Thank you so much for having me.