Having Better Sex with Renowned Sex Therapist Ian Kerner

[00:03:08] thank you. Yeah, I'm really just the most excited that you're here.

[00:03:13] Ah, thanks. And I guess my first like question is to you, a professional, would you say that Americans are having good sex? Would I say that Americans are having good sex? You know, I tend to see people who are not having good sex. You know, they're in New York. They're pretty busy if they're coming to see me.

[00:03:32] Yeah. And they're forking over some money. They tend to, to not be having good sex, but I am helping them to have good sex. And it's interesting helping them in new ways. Like more and more couples that are struggling with sex are deciding to try non-monogamy and give that a whirl. And that's something pretty new and interesting for your typical sort of cisgendered, heterosexual couple that's had a history of serial monogamy and is that working?

[00:04:01] yeah, for, for the most part it can work. It really depends on the motivation that a couple's going into it with. Yeah. If they're [00:04:08] both sort of sexually expansive and appreciate the role of sexuality in being alive. Um, yes, if, uh, they're really just looking to solve a problem.

[00:04:18] If one partner's sort of being dragged along. Right. That's, yeah. So it's kind of a flip of coin, but I was in trying help people make it work. Open relationship once, but it didn't. How did that work work out for you? Not great. Yeah, it was like a first off, this was before I feel like non-monogamy or polyamory became more mainstream.

[00:04:38] Yeah. Obviously it has existed forever, but uh, it was a situation where it was sort of like, um, when we're together, we're together and when we're not, we're not. And so there weren't defined rules. It got very. Messy very quickly. My feelings were always kind of getting hurt. Yeah. And I think what it did is it bred insecurity.

[00:04:57] Yeah. Which is, yeah, from friends of mine that I know that are in what I would call functional, non-monogamous relationships. Kind of the polar opposite. Right. [00:05:08] Yeah. No, I think it's really important to have a, a strong primary relationship if you're going into it as a couple. Yeah. And actually I've seen couples with non-monogamy do increasingly interesting arrangements like deciding to.

[00:05:23] Date another couple together. Mm-hmm. And sort of be in a monogamous relationship, but with another couple and sort of make it a more of a shared experience. So, you know, there's lots of interesting variations, but, um, do I think that Americans are having good sex? You know, I think kind of the issues sort of stay the same.

[00:05:42] Like I wrote, she comes first a long time ago and as we were discussing earlier, uh, a lot of women are still not really getting the most outta partnered sex, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it's in a lot of the ways the problems are the same. I, yeah, it kind of blows my mind. We were talking off, uh, Mike, about how I speak to a ton of friends, just a ton of women.

[00:06:03] Like I'm always trying to talk about sex relationships just cuz it fascinates me. [00:06:08] And last night I was out and my friend literally was like, I don't, which vibrators do you use? How are you coming during sex? Yeah. And it made me sad. Yeah. We are also, we got very kind of graphic and I mean, I don't care, but she, she didn't, I don't think anybody's like ever touched her g-spot.

[00:06:24] Right. Which is fine. I mean, I think maybe that works for some women and not for everyone, but those kinds of conversations, it's hard for me not to go like, wait, I don't understand what is happening. Well, you tell me. I mean, I, um, I work with, um, a lot of young couples and very often, you know, I'm talking right now about cisgendered heterosexual couples, and very often the women will come in and say, yeah, I love sex, but I don't have orgasms during sex orgasms or for when I'm masturbating and taking care of myself.

[00:06:52] I enjoy partnered sex for different reasons. So it seems like a lot of people exercise connection. Okay. Intimacy. I mean, then you have a lot of. Then, then there's the opposite, which is being too orgasm focused. Right? Sure. And not being appreciate, not being [00:07:08] able to appreciate all the other aspects of sex.

[00:07:10] I'm working with a couple yesterday where the guy read my book and he's approaching, you know, sex as, um, game show or something like, how well can I do? And the woman feels intense pressure to have an orgasm and is like, I really like all the other parts just as much, if not more. So that is something that does drive me nuts when I feel like guys are wa just waiting like that feels like there's a ticking time clock.

[00:07:34] I'm like, wait a second. How did this just become a, a game show? Yeah. Again, I'm the sole contestant. Yeah. Yeah. Then it's, then it's really, I mean, there's healthy objectification where you feel desired and wanted, and then there's, yeah. Objectification where you're just like an orgasm object for some guy.

[00:07:53] one thing that really struck me in kind of all of your books, and this is a two part question. It's made me nervous. It's the morning, so one part at a time. One part at a time. Okay. Why are people so scared to talk about their sex lives or their sexual fantasies? [00:08:08] so let's talk about the fantasy thing first, because the way people approach fantasies, it's almost confrontational.

[00:08:15] Like, I'll sit with couples in sessions and let's just say a woman will be like, I just want to know what's his fantasy? Mm-hmm. Like he's not telling me what's really turning him on, you know? And I want to know, and, and sometimes someone on the other end of that could be like, look, I really don't know.

[00:08:29] my fantasy is sort of like sex and yeah, we're having it. So I believe that everyone fantasizes, I believe that everyone has. Erotic themes that we bring with us across the life cycle, you know, specific themes and, content that really turns us on more than other themes. So I think we all have rich, potentially rich erotic lives and rich erotic imaginations.

[00:08:54] But like you just said, we don't necessarily know how to tap into that. and we're not really communicating about it. Like, I, I find it very interesting. I'll work with couples who have been, you know, in relationships for 10 years, and they'll talk [00:09:08] about everything. they'll talk about.

[00:09:09] Prenups and in-laws and kids and where are they gonna live? And religion and food. Like, they can talk about everything and argue about everything. And they've never once, I mean, never once talked about the sex that they're having, you know, because it's what just supposed to work. It's just supposed to happen.

[00:09:29] And why, why would you never have a conversation about a topic? that I think is more important than most of the other topics I just mentioned. Well, first of all, it has a lot to do with how you ra were raised, right? Yeah. Most of us were not raised in sex positive homes. Yeah. Where healthy sexuality was talked about and modeled.

[00:09:47] I'm trying to do that in my, my own home. most of us were raised in sex avoidant homes where sex just wasn't discussed. Mm. Some of us were raised in sex negative homes, and if you were raised in a sex negative home, then more than likely you're gonna be Talking about sex through a lens of, of sex negativity.

[00:10:03] The journey from sex negativity to sex positivity Yeah. Is a long one. But if you grew up [00:10:08] in a house where sex was never talked about, well, isn't that what was modeled for you? Yeah. It does explain a lot because I grew up in a pretty sex positive household. Right. So when you're with a partner Yeah.

[00:10:19] Yeah. So when you're with a partner, you're comfortable. Oh yeah. Um, Talking about what you want Yeah. And what you need and what's not working. And yeah. I also like, so like, what are you into? Yeah. That's a question that I ask everyone, and I didn't realize that it was not common. Well, what do people say when you say, so what are you into?

[00:10:35] Hmm. Generally the first response is, what do you mean? And I'm like, well, do you like to get pegged? Are you mm-hmm. Into role play? Do you mm-hmm. Or is, is BDSM like a thing? Mm-hmm. Like, I don't find, it's not a confrontational conversation. Like for me, like I'm just curious and if the answer is nothing, I'm, the answer is nothing.

[00:10:51] That's fine. Right. That's, you know. Right. It is what it is. It's more just like, okay, if we're here and we're doing this thing and we're naked, Right. We might as well. Right? Don't you wanna get the most out of this? Well, you're sort of saying like, we're at a restaurant, I guess so yeah. What do I want on the menu?

[00:11:04] Yeah. And let me decide ahead of time. I think that's an interesting approach. [00:11:08] Like why not? Yeah. Like I talk a lot in my book about, you know, sex scripts, what comprises a sexual event and having different sex scripts. I guess if somebody, which by the way, changed my life. Oh, thank you. Truly. Has made me think about partnered sex in a totally different way.

[00:11:23] I think that had I read your book a few years ago, my life would be different. Oh, well that's that's very nice. What would, what would be different though, do you think? I think I had a hormonal problem, truly. Okay. Like one day I woke up and the lights were off, like I Right. No longer wanted to have sex with my partner, but also didn't masturbate at all.

[00:11:41] Okay. Went from being pretty sexual to just, nothing ended really fucked with my boyfriend. We never got over it. Yeah. He couldn't believe that it wasn't. Personal. Right. Right. I mean, it was very personal to me. Right. I went and saw doctors, and these doctors literally looked me in the face and was like, I don't think you like your boyfriend that much.

[00:12:01] Right. was pretty presumptuous. I also was like, well, can't tell 'em that until that's gonna help. Were they at all? Right. I mean, was it [00:12:08] an attraction issue? No. Okay. No, it wasn't. You know, the biggest debate I have with other sex therapists mm-hmm. I just had this last night, is the importance of sexual attraction in picking a partner and the extent to which, Something can be created that wasn't necessarily there in the first place.

[00:12:24] And I, I wrote a piece for CNN not too long ago talking about how so many couples that I work with that have sexual problems or a lack of sexual desire really say, well, I never picked this partner because I was sexually attracted to them. I, I had plenty of hot sex, but that was kind of crazy. I picked this partner because I'm getting serious now, right?

[00:12:46] So this is about security and safety in a future. And anyway, doesn't sex just stop once you're married or won't it just get better? So I find it incredible that, uh, so many people are picking partners without privileging and prioritizing sexual attraction. That is what you've just said is accurate in terms of like, I have seen that anecdotally, 

[00:13:07] I [00:13:08] have a friend right now who is still single specifically because she can't find the person that is, you know, safe, reliable, consistent, all of those things that she is also attracted to. Yeah. And will not compromise on that. And I think that that's smart because Yeah. I don't know, I've just never, do you know the movie Clueless?

[00:13:28] Yeah, I saw it when it came out in the theaters. So that's about how I, 200 years ago? Yeah. Okay. So there's this moment where Shere has this like realization that she's in love with Josh. And I always refer to it as like the, I'm in love with Josh moment. Oh yeah. Where she's gone through the whole movie, not realizing she's in love with her stepbrother, which we're just gonna glaze over.

[00:13:47] That's right. That was Ben. And then it's like she gets hit in the head with a lightning bolt and it is like, I'm in love with Josh. Yeah. I've been waiting for that moment my whole life. Yeah. And it has led to so many awkward conversations with guy friends. Yeah. Because it's never happened.

[00:13:59] You're right. You're waiting for someone to, that you really care about, that you really love, that you have emotional safety with, to suddenly be the hot person, super smoke and hot [00:14:08] to me night. You wanna Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's never happened. Right. I I hear you. I hear you. I think that that's true. I think that that's true.

[00:14:14] And I don't think that that can be created. I don't think that should be overlooked. I don't think it should be, devalued and I get in arguments all the time with, with people, about the importance of attraction and can it be created? Yeah. Down the line. I believe it can go away if it was there. Sure.

[00:14:29] I believe it can diminish, but I don't believe you can find it if it wasn't there. Yeah, I don't think so either. And it's crazy because I'm such a nicer person. when I have sex. Good sex? What do you mean nicer? Oh, you mean you're nicer? Like I'm nicer. Like I The world would be a better place. Yeah.

[00:14:46] Yeah. Truly. Like there's a, an ease, a calmness. The, i, there are real hormones that get released and they case a hundred percent, you know, couple's, therapists need, couple's therapy needs to evolve because most couples therapists would say, if you have a sexual problem mm-hmm. It's a relationship problem and you should work on your relationship and that's gonna fix the sex problem.

[00:15:07] Now that's [00:15:08] because a lot of them are an educated or trained in sex. Mm-hmm. But I actually take sometimes the opposite approach. Like, you know, if you have a relationship problem, maybe you can help your relationship problem by having sex. Mm-hmm. Or improving your sex life. And there have been studies that have shown that.

[00:15:23] Couples, regardless of sex, gender orientation, couples who have sex once a week, and have healthy sex, have higher levels of relationship positivity than couples who do not. And couples who have sex 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 times a week don't necessarily have higher levels of relationship positivity than the couples who had sex once a week.

[00:15:45] But the couples who didn't have sex once a week Yeah. Have, haven't had sex in like three weeks or four weeks, have significantly lower levels of overall relationship positivity. So you're talking about sort of like the positivity that comes from sex Yeah. And the halo effect. Yeah. And yeah, God, totally.

[00:16:06] It's real. [00:16:08] Uh, yeah. I, and so these women that are having sex, but they're not getting the halo effect. Well, is the halo effect connected to orgasm, or is it connected to the connection? Oh, for me, it's connected to orgasm. cool. Yeah. Right. So you're, you're gonna prioritize orgasm or it's important. I agree.

[00:16:24] Let me say by the way, I also catch a lot of flack because I don't know if it's the same for your generation, but when I was growing up, there was kind of, and even starting to practice, there was this idea that men always have to have orgasms. Men are orgasm focused, and for women it's sort of a, a nice to have, but a must have, not a must have.

[00:16:45] And that became the cultural belief that was espoused in like every magazine. Mm-hmm. And I think it was just a big excuse for guys being illiterate and culture mean ili. Yeah. And. Not knowing how to consistently give women orgasms. And so let's culturally say it doesn't matter that much. So I actually do value and prioritize orgasm almost to a [00:17:08] fault.

[00:17:08] It's like it's a culmination, right? It means you were aroused, it means you were connected. It means you were turned on. It means you were absorbed, you were in flow, your body was alive, right? All of those things. Yes. And I just had a conversation with a really good friend of mine. She's breaking up with a guy because she mm-hmm.

[00:17:28] Isn't being, satisfied. And she's angry afterwards, right? And I was like, yeah, dude. Because by the time he's come, you're just getting ready, right? And then it's like, I don't know what the equivalent of blue balls is. Right? Because again, we have not developed that for women. Right. But, so then she's just so frustrated.

[00:17:47] But his refractory period is, is too long. Like there's not, right. Anyway, so, right. Yeah. That's dumbed to depend on the refractory period because you're better to focus on, on having good sex. But, you know, the problem is that, you know, so I wrote this book, so tell me about the last time you had sex mm-hmm.

[00:18:03] In terms of what was your last sexual event and, and what was it like? And the [00:18:08] vast majority of heterosexual couples, I mean, what percentage of heterosexual couples do you think either had penis and vagina intercourse the last time they had sex or attempted to and couldn't for some reason? A hundred percent.

[00:18:20] Mm. Like 95%. Okay. Like 96%. Okay. You know, it's really high now in terms of the patients I see. How long do you think it takes from them to get, to get to, from the idea of sort of, Hey, let's have sex. Mm-hmm. And jump into bed or wherever they're gonna have it to the intercourse so fast. I think it's probably so fast.

[00:18:40] Oh wait. If they're your patient, how long have they been seeing you? Maybe if they've been seeing you for a while. They came in, they came in. Just come in and it's pretty fast. Cause it's the first question I ask in the first session. I would say it's pretty fast. Yeah. anywhere from zero to five minutes maybe.

[00:18:54] Yeah. Five to six minutes. With a median being sort of, I think more around, uh, three minutes. The zero is always interesting to me. Because that's like, we're gonna show up in bed naked, he's gonna have an erection. It [00:19:08] may hurt a little, it may not, but we're gonna go straight to intercourse because that's what sex is.

[00:19:14] Wow. Right. So there's a total discrepancy in arousal. It's funny that you say that because the way that I actually found you is I had a guest on his name's Hunter, and he was reading your book. She comes first and he and I got into a conversation about foreplay. Mm-hmm. And I had said like, 20 minutes.

[00:19:29] Like, like it needs to be a long time. And he couldn't believe that I had said that. Yeah. He was like, there's no way I don't wanna blowjob for that long. And I was like, okay, well that's you. But, well that's how he is thinking about foreplay. Something that's genitally focused, that's not intercourse.

[00:19:44] Okay. All of all of the things. Oh, that's a very limited view of foreplay. And, I think he said something like seven, I'm not sure, but. I was reading your book and then I sent him a page that foreplay is core play or something like. Yeah. Foreplay is a complete act of sex. Totally. But then also if in one of these pages, that if women have foreplay for 21 minutes or longer, it Really drastically increases the [00:20:08] odds of, yeah.

[00:20:09] There was a statistic I quoted when she comes first. At the time, that was about 80% of women do not orgasm from, intercourse right alone. but 80% of women plus do orgasm from intercourse plus outer course and a complete sexual event. Right. That's really more outercourse based than, than intercourse based.

[00:20:30] And you asked me an interesting question. Are couples having better sex? And I wanna say, actually yes. If we're talking about like younger heterosexual couples, because there is more literacy coming into the bedroom, in a lot of cases people are saying, you know, I want my partner to have an orgasm before me because I'm gonna have it first, per se.

[00:20:50] Yeah. or women will say, I want to use my vibrator during sex. Yeah. And I'm gonna bring that in. Or here's a position and you're gonna use, you know, your fingers. Mm-hmm. So I think that there is more openness to recognizing that most intercourse positions on their own do not [00:21:08] provide the kind of stimulation that leads to orgasm.

[00:21:10] Right, right, right. Most intercourse positions do not adequately provide clitoral stimulation. And the clitoris is really the powerhouse of the female orgasm. I know. I hope everybody listening just really took that to heart, because I do think that's the first step into making sure that you're having satisfactory sex.

[00:21:29] Absolutely. And it's so much. actually, it takes so much pressure off of certainly, uh, women to try and have an orgasm without that or to fake it. But for guys, man, yeah. I meet so many guys who, I mean, can I tell you like I could build an entire, I could hire two therapists. I don't have a group practice.

[00:21:48] Mm-hmm. But I could, two therapists whose only job was to deal with. Young guys who have psychological erectile impairment because of performance anxiety. And I could send you at least,

[00:22:00] at least five. Right? Right. So probably more. Right. So that's because of the pre this pressure to make [00:22:08] intercourse an entire sexual event. So, you know, from the beginning, I came across, back in like 1995, I forgot the, the writer. She was the first one to actually use the term outer course. And I thought that that was kind of a, a brilliant term.

[00:22:22] Yeah. At the time. Totally. You know, and to take a total. Outercourse focus to sex and an outercourse focus to sex can include intercourse. It's just recognizing that a penis in a vagina is just a behavior. It's no different than any other behavior that we're gonna engage in. Sure. do you mind if I ask you quick, another question?

[00:22:42] Of course. On this topic course. So we said that about 99% of heterosexual couples had intercourse mm-hmm. The last time they had sex. So looking at gay men mm-hmm. Let's just say, oh, way higher. Well, hold on. What, what percentage of gay men do you think had, intercourse, penis and anus intercourse the last time they had sex?

[00:23:02] Oh, way lower. Way lower. Because I have a lot of Right gay friends, and I can think [00:23:08] of one right now who's like, oh yeah. I'm like, we don't, I rarely have sex. Yeah. And in the way that we think of That's right. So it's about 35%. Interesting. So 65% of gay men did not have anal intercourse the last time they had sex for a whole variety of different reasons.

[00:23:25] But what they did have was a tremendous amount of outer course, right? And there's about 10 basic outer course behaviors when you think about manual stimulation, oral stimulation, kissing, connecting, touching, building a sex script. And what's interesting is in a survey of 25,000 gay men on their last sexual event, 25,000 men took those 10 behaviors and created over 1300 different sex scripts, different sequences of pulling those behaviors together to create.

[00:23:55] A personalized path that was pleasurable, you know? And that's not something that heterosexual couples do. No, I don't think so. Yeah. So I have another question for you. Yeah. You said, and I appreciate this, that if, if we're gonna have [00:24:08] sex, why not make it like we're gonna pick the restaurant we want to go to mm-hmm.

[00:24:13] And we're gonna pick the menu items, and we're gonna know that in advance, I'm gluten free, let's avoid that. Right. So is that what you really want? Like, do you want somebody, like before you're gonna have sex to say, so what are you into? And then you can decide together. Well, tonight might be like B D S M themed, or tonight I just want some outer course or, so it's interesting that you say that because I don't always, sometimes that comes after, like, after we've had sex for the first time.

[00:24:36] I try to be really mindful of men's egos because I also have come across a lot of, dudes with, do we use the word dysfunction? Um, it depends on the content. I don't know. I try not to, like if we were gonna talk about like erectile dysfunction. Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. It's been called erectile dysfunction.

[00:24:52] It's called erectile disorder. It's been called impotence. Mm-hmm. I really don't use any of those terms. Sometimes I will use erectile impairment, but I actually don't even use that term. Okay. Usually what I use is erectile unpredictability or erectile variability. Okay. So, [00:25:08] I have encountered a lot of variability from men who straight out the gate are like, listen, I will come really, really quickly.

[00:25:16] Yeah. So we are gonna focus on you first because there's nothing I can change about it. that's amazing what it is. You guys will say that on the first date. Yeah. That's really cool. I mean, you know, I write about she comes first. That was an issue that really, uh, plagued me was, you know, Coming first.

[00:25:31] Yeah. Um, and I couldn't talk about it as a young person and if I had talked about it, my partners wouldn't know how to deal with it for at that time, and I would've been felt pathologized. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think it's an amazing if a, if a person can actually come to a partner and say, listen, I might be having anxiety the first time and I might not have the most consistent direction.

[00:25:51] I've also had that this guy is like six five. Truly one of the only guys where I've ever walked down the street. And as many women as men would look. Yeah. Like just, yeah. Insane. And. very kinky into BDSM and told me out the gate, he was [00:26:08] like, oh, the first few times we have sex, like I will absolutely use Viagra.

[00:26:10] Right. Because I get really nervous and then I'll just settle into it and it'll be a thing. But it's funny because it was, he was so confident in it, it wasn't a big deal. Right, right. A lot of guys, I recommend, uh, take that approach when they have those, that those initial, uh, jitters. Jitters or, yeah. And then some couples will only have outer course because, I don't know, they're still thinking that intercourse is some big deal that they're leading up to.

[00:26:34] Mm-hmm. And they had great sex all the way up to the first time they had intercourse, and then that's when the problems began and they can't get back to it. It's like going back to the Garden of Eden. They just can't get back. They've eaten the apple, the poisoned apple, and uh, whatever it is. Oh, fascinating.

[00:26:49] So I have one other question. So. if you say to somebody like, what are you into, or What do you really like? Mm-hmm. are you expecting somebody to say, well, I like role playing, I like pegging, I like be distant. But what if that person says, well, I really just love kissing. I really just love like getting in bed and just like having a nice kissing session.

[00:27:07] I think at that, [00:27:08] so. That has happened to me. Actually, it's funny that you say that cuz the best sex of my life is with, a guy who is a classical musician. So I say that because I'm like, I think he, he's very skilled, he has rhythm, he has timing, he's great with his fingers, all those things. Mm-hmm. and it was mostly us kissing.

[00:27:26] Mm-hmm. I feel like I am, what I'm into changes. It's definitely partner dependent. I think that I, I don't know if it's that I started as an actor, what it is, but I like to create whatever is going to exist with that person. Mm-hmm. So whatever we would create would be different than what we would create, would be different than what we would create.

[00:27:45] And I do get a little bored. Like if somebody was like, I'm, I'm always into this one thing, like, I only ever wanna do this. Right. That would maybe, Great on me a little bit at a certain point. Right, right. But I'd be okay with the kissing thing. Right. Like I don't need it to be balls to the wall all the time.

[00:28:00] Yeah. It's funny cuz I have so many couples who are like into kink, into role playing into, you name it, and they're [00:28:08] struggling with their sex life, they're struggling with desire. And sometimes I'll say, well what's it like when you two just kiss each other? Mm-hmm. They'll say, oh we don't kiss each other.

[00:28:15] I don't like that. Or something about, and, and that really tells me that something might be going on with their innate chemistry. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I can't imagine having sex with somebody without kissing. Like ever. A lot of you asked me like, is sex getting better? And one way that it's not getting better is cuz I asked.

[00:28:33] Thousands of couples about their sex scripts. Right. And you'd be surprised how many do not include, sensual kissing, like kissing. That's gonna get us synchronized. Yeah. Kissing that's gonna get us absorbed and relaxed and calm. And that's sexy. No, no. Highly absent. Highly absent from couple sex scripts.

[00:28:52] That a new trend or a, I think it is. Okay. I think it's somewhat new. I think it's somewhat new general generationally. I, I think it's actually a function again, of people picking partners without sexual chemistry. I've, I've seen this a lot. Mm-hmm. We [00:29:08] don't really have sexual chemistry, so he can go down on me or I can go down anymore.

[00:29:12] We can go straight to intercourse, but no, we don't kiss. So I think it's kind of a function of picking, again, based on safety and security. Wow. That is, because then you really might not want. Of course to look at that person in the face and taste their, of course. You know? Yeah. Might be easier. Just say, just put your dick inside of me.

[00:29:31] Yeah. You know? Oh, way easier. Trust me. Yeah. Way easier. Yeah. Fascinating. So, I have a question for you. I know a lot of women who feel like, guys going down on them is way more vulnerable than sex. Mm-hmm. What's that about? I personally think that that's about, cultural conditioning and genital self-esteem.

[00:29:51] I think it's a more vulnerable act. Sure. Which it is, because I think from what I've come to understand is that a lot of women are really worried, like, how do I really look down there, smell down there, taste on there, I the last thing I would ever want to do is go down on, have [00:30:08] that in my face, you know?

[00:30:09] Mm-hmm. And then the biggest question that women often say is, I don't believe that he really enjoys it. I don't believe he's really into it. So it, it's an act that I think can trigger. A lot of discomfort. And then she comes first. I have a whole chapter just dedicated, to the concept of just reassuring a partner and making a partner feel emotionally safe with that and letting, I mean, it is true that all of the elements that I just described, taste, touch, smell, time, those are all elements that can be aphrodisiacs, not turnoffs for sure.

[00:30:41] They sure they're turnons. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's wild. I mean, for me, when I was like not into it, it's just cuz it wasn't good. Right. You know? And so how do you communicate to a partner how to be better at oral sex? Well, I didn't know Right. So I would just say I'm not really into that. And yeah. I, I spent a lot of time having sex because I thought it was like what I was supposed to be doing.

[00:31:05] Right. So did I, and, and sometimes it was like [00:31:08] I got lucky. Right. And it just worked Right. Most of the time. And then you wanna just hold onto that person and never like, go of that person. Yeah. She's like, holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. And then, Weirdly, I was on a watered once. It's so weird because this was Yeah, in modern times.

[00:31:24] Yeah. But I was on a watered and that's when I realized I was really into getting fingered and that mm-hmm. Sort of unlocked the next phase of, I would say, my sexual journey. Right. And things change from there. I think when somebody's not good, when a woman feels like a guy isn't good at oral sex, I think it's also a matter of timing. 

[00:31:42] I think that like interesting people like oral sex, direct clitoral stimulation, fantastic behavior, often delivered at the wrong time, very, very early in a sexual event before a partner's really fully aroused and an absorbed and in a state of Well, that's actually, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:32:00] does make a lot of sense. And so when I'm talking to couples about their sex scripts mm-hmm. I'll often say, well, you need like a new first [00:32:08] act, or you need like a new arousal runway because you're going straight to, in one way or another, direct genital stimulation, whether it's intercourse, oral sex, manual stimulation, you need to do other stuff that's not just physical.

[00:32:22] That's psychological too. Totally. Right. You need to get yourselves really turned on. Yeah. You have to like heat the pan up before you're going to, seems so basic. It seems so basic and yet, It's elusive. Yeah. We're not taught about money. We're not taught how to do our taxes. We're not taught about a lot of things that we are supposed to do. That's very true. And, and be really good at. And if there's, if we're not, there's pretty big consequences.

[00:32:45] And I think that's true. Sex is a huge one, which is truly why I have this show. Yeah, that's great. Because I am not i'll, I'd rather just talk about my stuff, my life, if it makes people feel more comfortable. Right. Because I do believe having these conversations Right, is the first step. not feeling uncomfortable, bringing a vibrator on a date, knowing that you're gonna have sex.

[00:33:06] It's true. That's true. Why not? Right? It's like [00:33:08] basic financial planning. Learn some basic sexuality. It's funny, I've been married for, with my wife for like 25 years now and she's still like, what's our bank account again? What's our password? Wait, what is this tax thing you're asking me to do? But if we're talking about sex, like she's right in there.

[00:33:23] Yeah. You know? So it is funny, like yeah, I guess you're right. And it's just more, but aren't couples more comfortable sort of feeling like, oh, we need a financial plan. Mm-hmm. Or let's go see a personal finance planner. as opposed to, we need to figure out how to have good sex. Yeah. We need to learn how to combine our money.

[00:33:41] That's something that we don't know, but we should know how to combine our bodies sexually. Well, I think it goes back to what you were saying about shame and just the society that we, we live in. Like it's weird that we are in such a hypersexualized world. Yeah. But. Than the actual, real conversations around sex are so stigmatized.

[00:34:00] Yeah. Like, I mean, the STDs has to be the next battle that we fight because the way that STDs are stigmatized is absolutely [00:34:08] fucking agree. Insane to me. Agree. I agree. Um, but just even thinking about that, there's so much shame around that. Yeah. And there's so much shame around women saying like, oh yeah, I don't, I don't know how to get off Right.

[00:34:20] Or I don't even know how to get myself off. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think that that's, yeah. Well you're gonna be bringing in, uh, you're gonna be talking to the, one of the co-founders of Dane products. Right? It's true. That's true. Yeah. Those are my favorite sex toys. I recommend them really all the time.

[00:34:33] That's, they're the first ones I recommend usually. Ah, that's amazing. Yeah. Just cuz they're great products. They great and they do great products. Yeah. Product research. Yeah. I've done a lot of product research. I have a question for you very specifically. Sure. Because I was reading. So tell me about the last time you had sex and you talk about safe risks.

[00:34:52] Mm-hmm. And how safe risks with a couple can bring, like a little bit of newness, a little bit of spice when you need it. Mm-hmm. And then I got worried. I got worried that I'm so vocal mm-hmm. And kind of out there that I won't have any safe risks left. Right. [00:35:08] So what's gonna happen to me when I am in a 10 year relationship and things?

[00:35:12] Well, let's talk about this. So what did I really mean by. Safe risks. I really meant that, I talk about three types of sex. Mm-hmm. That kind of exist as big buckets. There's procreative sex, which, you know, some of us have on occasion pre the time. Sure. Um, and that brings up issues. Then there's really relational sex, which is really tied into our relationship and helping us feel connected mm-hmm.

[00:35:36] To a, to a partner over the long term. And then there's recreational sex, which is just fun sex that you could have with a partner, you could have with yourself. You could have casually, anonymously. And most of us focus on the relational sex, and we lose sight of the recreational sex. Mm-hmm. Because the recreational part was just being with someone for the first time and getting to know someone.

[00:35:59] And Yeah. That provided all of the novelty. So I think that relational sex is great when it works, especially in terms of [00:36:08] providing that. Safety, emotional safety, allowing you to be vulnerable around sex. But we lose the recreational.

[00:36:16] Right. So safe risks are combining the relational with the recreational. I think what you're saying is that you're so focused on like the fun mm-hmm. And the recreational aspects that like, are you gonna run out of fun stuff to do? Is that sort of what you're saying? Kind of that like a lot of, now granted this is, the book is specific to couples that are having issues that you're helping resolve.

[00:36:42] So I know that that's there's, it's through a lens, but Yeah. it seems like you do such an excellent job of helping people break down their walls. Mm-hmm. And find, you know, common ground or unlocking, like that thing that they were embarrassed to admit that they're now sharing with their partner. Right.

[00:36:58] And I'm like, what if I'm not embarrassed to admit anything? Right. So let me ask you a couple questions. Do you find, like, are you a thrill seeker in other aspects of life, or are you [00:37:08] seeking out peak experiences? Do you get off on adrenaline in any way? Not really. No. Not really. Okay. Because what I'm, I'm actually pretty risk averse.

[00:37:15] Right? Okay. But what I'm hearing is maybe sexuality is a place where you do want to have those peak experiences. I think my fear is waking up one day and looking into the eyes of the person I love and being like, ah, man, I'm bored. Right. Well, I think, I think first of off, if you have good communication from the beginning.

[00:37:35] Mm-hmm. Um, I think if you are comfortable incorporating psychological arousal into a sexual event, by that I mean there's face-to-face psychological arousal. I mean, listen, women can. Fantasize their way to orgasm without touching themselves. Men can get very robust directions without touching themselves, watching something, thinking about something.

[00:37:56] So why aren't we bringing more of that psych, psychological arousal into the bedroom? So how do we bring it in now? Mm-hmm. You might be someone who's very face-to-face and how you bring it in and you're looking for a partner who's ready to [00:38:08] role play with you or ready to do something fun. Sure, sure. Or kinky or different.

[00:38:11] A lot of couples aren't ready for that face-to-face psychological arousal, so they can start with something that's like side by side, like watching some ethical porn together. You know? There's so much out there. Yeah. Yeah. That they could do. But if you can bake in the concept of psych, psychological arousal mm-hmm.

[00:38:27] With communication, with knowing each other's bodies well enough to have good technique to move through the process of arousal. I think that you have a lot of potential to keep expanding and growing and we're, yeah, I guess you'll never get bored. What's that? I guess? I guess, yeah. Cuz that's the storytelling aspect.

[00:38:45] But where you might start, you might start to hit a wall in that. Your sexual temperament, your sexual personality might be tuned differently than a partner's. Like, I gotta be honest, I'm a little more of a sexual couch potato. Like if something's really working well for me, like I don't need a whole lot more than that.

[00:39:03] Sure, sure. I like to have a fun date night. I like to like eat a gummy or something like that, but like, [00:39:08] it's not gonna take a lot. And luckily I'm with a partner who's sort of in that same zone matches up. But if I was really with somebody who is, could get bored easily with sex or really needed or wanted a lot of variety and a lot of novelty, that might be a challenge in the relationship.

[00:39:25] Oh boy. Well, I'll have to, I'll have to check back. You have to think about how you're matched with somebody in a lot of different areas, including sex. Yeah. How, Hmm. I wonder, how do you go about figuring out that part? I guess because I am into newness. Mm-hmm. That could also just be because I've been single for a minute.

[00:39:43] Mm-hmm. Well, how do you figure out, let's talk about this. I'm doing this out loud spontaneously. How do you figure out compatibility in a different aspect of life with a partner? How are you not gonna know if your friends are gonna get along or, I don't know, you're gonna like the same foods or where else are we looking for compatibility?

[00:39:58] Yeah, sure. I guess part of it's instinct, for me, part of it is like the immediate vibe that you get with somebody. Right. And then time. Right? Yeah. And what are the areas where people [00:40:08] start to feel a lot of incompatibility, like around alone time versus together time. Mm-hmm. Right. Like I think how they handle the phone, how they handled like technology and, and, uh, work.

[00:40:20] I mean, I guess on big things like kids or religion, money and money, there's incompatibility, but then there's also just like, I don't know, like we're not, ha we're not into the same things in terms of fun, like on a weekend. Right. And I guess you only learn that. Through a little bit of ex through instinct.

[00:40:36] Mm-hmm. And through a little bit of experience bringing it up. Yeah. Seeing if you can overlap. I always say that relationships are a Venn diagram, right? Yeah. You're a circle. I'm a circle. We overlap. And what we're really occupying is that relational overlap. And how much of ourselves can we bring into the relational overlap to create compatibility.

[00:41:00] I love that. You know, I have a question that God submitted that I would love to ask you on behalf of the person. 

[00:41:06] he [00:41:08] has a great sex life with his wife, according to, to him and to her. She's never had a vaginal orgasm during sex. Mm-hmm. Without a toy. Right. And he's wondering if that can change. Well, first of all, you have to ask yourself what is a vaginal orgasm?

[00:41:24] And yes, can orgasm be stimulated through vaginal stimulation? Mm-hmm. Sure. But what is a vaginal orgasm? I mean, a vaginal orgasm is actually a clitoral orgasm. How is it a clitoral orgasm? Because the clitoris sort of is structured like a wishbone, right? And so the part of the clitoris that's visible is the tip of the wishbone.

[00:41:50] Mm-hmm. Which is, on the top of the vulva. And say, well, that's my clitoris, or That's the clitoris. Yeah. Yeah. But from there, there are internal stru. There's an in internal structures that are largely like two kinds of, it's like that ice, elastic legs, um, coaster. Yeah. Imagine a [00:42:08] wishbone and that wishbone is elastic and it wraps around the front of the vagina, the entrance to the vagina.

[00:42:15] Okay. Right. So now you have an entrance to a vagina that when a. Clitoris is being stimulated, the legs fill with blood and they wrap tightly around that vaginal entrance. So friction mm-hmm. In the vagina is going to create vibration mm-hmm. Against those clitoral structures. Right. The, the vagina itself does not have sensitive nerve endings.

[00:42:40] The vagina is designed to, honestly, to deliver a baby. Sure. Not to deliver pleasure. Sure. So a woman doesn't need more sensation in her. It's already painful enough. Right. So the only reason vaginal stimulation, and, and this is gonna be controversial, people are gonna say, no, I don't agree with this, but I'm gonna contend that the, the only reason that vaginal stimulation.

[00:43:02] It's consistently pleasurable is when there's, friction against those clitoral [00:43:08] structures. Mm-hmm. That's why the G-spot is so sensitive. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a thinner vaginal wall in which there's urethral sponge that's budding up against those clitoral structures. So it's about creating vibration.

[00:43:22] So that's why this woman enjoys vibration. Because external vibration gets internal and then there's the internal vibration you can provide with a vibrator. And you should ask Janet from, or Alexandra, fine from Dane products. Yeah. All about this as well. So I would say to this guy, what can you do, to create, you know, more vibration.

[00:43:44] Hmm. Um, so maybe, Maybe it is just embracing a sex toy as a source of friction. maybe it's using manual stimulation. Maybe it's thinking about how you are using, your penis to create that vibration. Maybe it's about thinking about a position, that's not the missionary position where like doggy style, where you have, you know, a better ability mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[00:44:06] To provide [00:44:08] friction against what's known against the G-spot. But that's what it is. Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating. Okay. Everybody needs Yeah. A you in their life. Yeah. And because the clitoral structures only wrap around the first inch or two of the vaginal canal, generally what that means is that girth and thickness mm-hmm.

[00:44:26] Is actually more important in a penis than length. That explain, yeah, that explains a lot. We should not be parsing this out, like G-spot, vaginal clitoral. I mean, orgasms are ultimately mentally and emotionally constructed. Right? So an orgasm could include nipple stimulation, an orgasm, no love, that can include anything, right?

[00:44:46] Yeah. Your orgasm is your. Orgasm. Yeah. I think that that's smart though, to stop. We should stop identifying them because it almost makes it competitive. Yeah. Which is not helping right. Anyone. Right. Oh, an I don't want to give her an orgasm from oral sex cuz that's not a real orgasm. And why isn't she orgasm mean?

[00:45:07] [00:45:08] Why aren't we orgasming at the same time from penetration? Right. It creates a hierarchy. Yeah. As if there's something and which intercourse is the tip of the pyramid. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And like that's the thing to be achieved. And so, because I think when you said mental and emotional, that really resonated with me a hundred percent because ultimately, When I've had what I will deem good sex afterwards, the thing that I am focused on is that, or the way that I feel.

[00:45:35] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the vast majority of women that I work with that don't have orgasm, sure they'll say they don't get adequate clitoral stimulation, but you know, what's really happening a lot of the time is they're just not able to like mentally deactivate and get absorbed in the sex that they're having.

[00:45:50] Their mind is still on something outside of the bedroom. And guys can be a little different in how, desire and arousal really operate. Des and men very often with the strong spontaneous desire, that desire can cut through the inhibitors. Like, oh, the smoke alarm's going off. Well, we're having [00:46:08] sex.

[00:46:08] I don't care if it's a fire. It's just a fucking toaster, you know? Don't worry. No, no, no. Wait. It's hot. Wait, people are, you hear people going downstairs. I'm telling you. It's just the toaster. Right. Like, we can cut through those stressors. and I'm not saying that women can't, but a lot of women have a harder time.

[00:46:23] Yeah. and so focusing on the mental emotional experience that allows for absorption mm-hmm. And getting into flow is really important. Sometimes I repeat like a mantra. Yeah. I know that sounds weird. No, no, no. And I didn't really think about it until you just said that. What is, what did you Don't have to tell me.

[00:46:41] I mean, well, it changes every time, right? But like, sometimes I'll, oh, this is so embarrassing and so personal. I can't believe I'm gonna admit it. Uh, The last person I had sex with, I just kept repeating, I would marry you, but you know, I would marry you. Was that your way of saying, this feels really nice.

[00:47:03] Yeah. And secure and good. Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I don't say it out loud, it's in my [00:47:08] mind. Well, I don't think you're talking about literally no needing to marry, but what you're saying is also literally would not marry this person. Right? Because I'm not interested in this person as a boyfriend.

[00:47:18] Right. For a myriad of reasons. Right. So I think what you're saying is this feels really nice. Yes. And comfortable. Yes. But it is a weird, yeah, it was a weird thing that was like circulating in my brain. But I do think I. Might do that instinctually to tune out other ideas or other thoughts. Right, right. So that I can stay focused.

[00:47:39] And in the zone study after study shows that, as women are getting closer to orgasm and parts of the brain associated with arousal or lighting up other parts of the brain that are associated with outside stressors mm-hmm. Are actually going dark. Mm-hmm. So in truth, to turn on, the sexual brain needs to turn off, especially in women.

[00:47:59] Wow. Yeah. So there are a lot of hurdles that women are facing today. Yeah. And maybe like one day your mantra will be, I would have a primary [00:48:08] relationship with you with two secondaries. And as long as. One of them was gender fluid. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's so very long. Mantra. Yeah. Also, I'm having a hard enough time finding just a primary partner, the thought of adding more people. 

[00:48:25] Yeah. And I think sometimes, I don't know, I find like with younger people that sometimes they're almost ashamed to admit they just want a primary partner and to be in a long-term relationship with someone. Interesting. Wow. You know, we've really, we've really kind of go to the other side. It's like the same.

[00:48:42] And then I've had, I've had couples who met and they said like, well, I identify as non-monogamous, or I identify as non-binary. And yeah, I want to be in a relationship. I don't see monogamy as being the be all end all. And they said that in the beginning, and then maybe along the line they've kind of rere reflected on that.

[00:48:58] But one partner's like, Hey, remember when eight years ago, You said that, uh, you are non-monogamous. I know we've never done anything like that in our history, [00:49:08] but I sort of wanna talk about that now. Yeah. And I wanna say that people are allowed to change their minds always. You know? Always. Yeah. I think that that's huge.

[00:49:16] And I like to say that just upfront to everybody I know. Yeah. I'm like, and even on this podcast, what I think today might not be what I think tomorrow. Yeah. Because hopefully I am evolving. That's right. So That's right. Can't wait to get canceled. Right. And so you can't just like say, well, you were into this in the beginning, or This is who you were.

[00:49:35] Yeah. Now you've changed, of course you've changed. Life has changed. Having read your books, I would say that kind of language toward a partner also puts up walls and kind of pushes them into a corner as opposed to like reading about sex scripts.

[00:49:47] That kind of definitive language of, mm-hmm you said this or you did this right. Is not gonna help have good sex or a, or healthy relationship because Right. It's making somebody go like this instead of, I I agree. And the reason I, I have this concept of a sex script, it's really just a metaphor. I mean, couples are coming into see me and [00:50:08] they're not having good sex.

[00:50:09] Mm-hmm. And the primary thing that they want to do is to have good sex. Yeah. They're generally not struggling with their sexual identity, their sexual personality. They're struggling with some aspect of sex. So when I can say, tell me about the last time you had sex. And we can think in of, of an event as having a structure that begins with an expression of desire and possibly ends with orgasm.

[00:50:30] The problem they're having is almost always reinforced by something that's happening or not happening in the sex script. But it's not meant to be rigid. It's not meant to be like, here's my sex script. What's your sex script? Right. If anything, I would say more like, well, here's a menu of. Of behaviors that I enjoy.

[00:50:46] What's your menu of behaviors? You said themes at the beginning of this conversation and themes. Yeah, and I think though, once you kind of know how to create a working sex script with a partner, it's something that you can really build on and improvise on top of. Well, I'm gonna link to all of your books.

[00:51:02] Your work is really incredible. Thank you. I appreciate that. I genuinely, I can't, first off, you [00:51:08] always have a seat to come on the show.

[00:51:10] Truly. Whenever you want. Thank you. this has been my favorite interview I've done. Oh, I appreciate that. In closing, what's the best love advice you've ever been given? The best love, not the best sex advice. Can I always ask like what's the best relationship advice? So I guess in that sense. Okay. best relationship advice that I could give does involve communication, but it's not just like have good communication.

[00:51:34] It's recognizing that when we communicate on difficult topics mm-hmm. Like sex, the first thing that happens is we often become defensive. It's an innate response for our guard to go up and for us to become def defensive. And so we're really then starting to communicate from defensive parts of ourselves.

[00:51:51] It's like we're sending out the soldiers. To do the negotiations and the communication. And behind those defenses is usually a vulnerability. Like, I'm worried that I'm not good enough, or I feel rejected. And if we can communicate from a place [00:52:08] of primary emotions and vulnerability, instead of saying like, we never have sex and I don't know what your deal is.

[00:52:15] if we can get into like, Hey, you know, I, I've been feeling like we've been neglecting sex a little bit, or I've been feeling a little neglected, or mm-hmm. Like rejected a little bit. Like, I, I just think it's coming from a softer, more vulnerable space. Yeah. That's inviting in a conversation. So in my own relationship over the years, I have learned.

[00:52:34] To stop communicating when I'm upset from my defensive activated places and to connect into my primary emotions. Holy shit. So that's sort of, that's the next, that's our next podcast. That's sort of where I would, uh, put things. That's amazing. Thank you. You're welcome so much. If people want more of you, how do they find you?

[00:52:54] Just my website. I don't have any social media. It's just my website, unfortunately. That's it. I think that's great. I appreciate coming on. I really value podcasts and the role in educating about sex. Yeah. That you're playing. So thank you. no thank you. [00:53:08] Okay, we're done.