Independence in Relationships

[00:16:00] Hello friends, future friends, haters and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Pod, and today is July 4th, otherwise known as Independence Day. And. I was originally not going to put an episode out today because I figured everyone would be busy barbecuing, but then as I thought about the word independence, I got inspired.

[00:16:25] See, I was raised to be independent, to raise my hand in class, to speak my mind, and to follow my heart. But when I sat down to think about independence in a romantic setting, I realized my relationship was a lot less straightforward, the first boyfriend I ever had made me feel smothered when he would offer to help me and just do nice things for me. I often think back to a core memory with him.

[00:16:50] I was sick and he had offered to go get me lunch from the cafeteria so that I didn't have to make the trek from my dorm room across campus all the way to the cafeteria and [00:17:00] back. And I remember thinking, does he think that I can't do this myself? Like obviously I can go get my lunch. I've been taking care of myself this whole time. Like I'm not some helpless creature. Ew, stop smothering me. Like I can handle things on my own. Obviously I was a hyper independent person, maybe a little avoidant and genuinely worried about what would happen if I lost my independence.

[00:17:22] I think at that point I was afraid of falling in love and losing independence. So small acts of kindness felt like smothering, but later in life I would slam across to the other side of the pendulum. I didn't realize it at the time, but I think I became codependent, and it was during this time in my life that I met.

[00:17:43] Award-winning journalist and cultural curator, Alana Levinson. So I asked her for some of her thoughts on what romantic independence, or really what the lack of independence means to her, and this is what she said.

[00:17:58] I think it's true that in [00:18:00] order to have a healthy relationship, you need to love yourself and have a really healthy sense of self and a sense of where, you know, you stop and the other person begins. But I think what it took me even longer to learn. And was more, far more painful was how much I had to free myself from my trauma, from my past experiences, from the things in my own mind that were preventing me from having the partnership I ever wanted.

[00:18:29] and I wish that I had put a little bit more time towards that earlier on cuz I was always just like, well, when I get this different person, it'll work. so. And you know, to some extent that's true, but I also had to be a different person, 

[00:18:44] her words resonate with me because I think for a lot of years I was afraid of independence. Now hear me out. Once upon a time I got hurt pretty badly, and instead of addressing that hurt, I chased love, thinking [00:19:00] that it would heal me and save me. You know, obviously this was unconscious, but I. I think that I thought around the next corner, around the next relationship was that salvation, that that romcom fairytale ending, that I just hadn't met the right person.

[00:19:14] And when I met the right person, everything would be okay. Right?

[00:19:18] So I was chasing this imaginary, idyllic thing. And at that time I loved to be loved, bombed. I mean, I think in some ways we all do, and I loved to assimilate into the life of another person. I loved to get caught up in the story of our romance or a potential, and I would let myself lean in.

[00:19:38] And practically speaking, that looked like me, making myself available to people that I was dating, even if it wasn't in my best interest. You know, maybe I had a writing deadline or I had other goals that I wanted to accomplish in my life, but I would put them aside in the name of love only to inevitably regret it.

[00:19:56] Months later, I would spend hours a day [00:20:00] daydreaming or thinking about what this other person was doing. And while I can't be sure. I would venture to believe that this was not reciprocated.

[00:20:08] I prioritized other people for a very long time, all while appearing independent. Don't get me wrong, I still did my own thing. I had my own life. And from the outside you would say I was independent. But looking back, I realized that I secretly feared independence because independence meant looking at my own baggage.

[00:20:29] I. It meant sorting through my own wounds and my own bullshit and bad habits, and really doing the work to make myself better. But as long as I had a new love interest, a new story to throw myself into, or a disaster to deal with, I could ignore my inner work and focus on that instead, because that was more pressing.

[00:20:49] That took precedence, and I did that. I did that for a very long time. And I'm not really ready to publicly share what happened to me, what finally sent me [00:21:00] plummeting toward rock bottom. But suffice to say, it was one of those earth shattering moments that forced me to deal with my life and the romantic rubble I was sitting in.

[00:21:10] so I did, I mean, I really had no other choice. and I started addressing my own inner issues, and I slowly regained my independence. And so I sit here today feeling like a whole and wholly independent person, and I'm genuinely excited about bringing that into my next relationship. But since that doesn't exist right now, since I am single and unmarried, I thought that today it might be cool to hear from some of my dear friends who are in long-term relationships that I personally admire.

[00:21:42] These are people who, at least from my vantage point, have some things figured out. And look, obviously I am not in any of their relationships and the grass is always greener, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But these are friends of mine who seem genuinely happy in their partnerships. so I asked each of them [00:22:00] what independence means to them in a romantic sense.

[00:22:03] And these are some of the answers I got.

[00:22:06] This is Jenny. A self-proclaimed or self-admitted chronically single person who is now in a loving relationship, engaged to her girlfriend, and they have the kind of relationship that just seems easy. It seems like it fits. It works. I greatly admire both of them, and I loved what she had to say.

[00:22:27] as Someone who was notoriously single, I was pretty terrified about what it would mean, for me to be in a relationship and what that would do to my independence as someone who I don't know likes to be alone and likes to do my own thing, but.

[00:22:43] Now that I'm in a great relationship and have been going on six years, independence in a relationship to me is being with someone who understands those parts of you and being alone together sometimes, whether it's, you know, [00:23:00] sitting on the couch next to each other, reading a book, or going out to see your friends without your partner, is so important I think there has to be independence within a relationship otherwise. You're just like consumed by another person, which I think takes away from what makes two people coming together so great. 

[00:23:21] I love the concept of alone together, of being able to assert independence. Yes, obviously, like apart from one another, but also asserting independence while together, I don't know, to me, that sort of makes me think of like having separate interests, but also being comfortable in silence together and allowing each other to carve out time to do your own thing, even if y'all are in the same room.

[00:23:45] So thank you, Jenny. Next I asked my friend Ben York Jones, who. Not only wrote one of my favorite movies slash love stories like crazy, but he's also been with his partner now for as long as I've known him, [00:24:00] Ben and I worked on my for sure film and he met his wife a few weeks before we met.

[00:24:04] And I remember sitting in my living room talking to him about her. And it's just been this really special and wild thing to get to witness their relationship and now their family blossom. And it's not a surprise to me that someone as eloquent and talented as Ben left me with a lot of things to think about.

[00:24:26] Having now been in a relationship for over a decade and with a 16 month old, I think independence is all about trust. Derived from understanding what your significant other needs outside of the relationship so that you can both bring the best version of yourself to it. It's literally the opposite of codependency and it's kind of about boundaries, or at least allowing for space.

[00:24:49] Which is different than distance,  giving and receiving space to think your own thoughts and have your own emotions and work through those and come to conclusions that you know can strengthen and [00:25:00] provide flexibility to the overall family unit. Making it something that you really deeply and passionately want slightly more than need.

[00:25:09] Allowing for space, which is different than distance, is a quote I am going to be thinking about weeks from now. Mark my words. What I love about Ben's answer is that, Boundaries are not what normally comes to mind when you think about marriage and family, at least not for me. Now, maybe this is because of how I was raised or just the love dating advice that I consumed growing up, but.

[00:25:35] I think that love has always felt like something that quote unquote knows no bounds. That love is about sacrifice and doing whatever it takes, and being as close together as possible. You know, merging yourselves as one

[00:25:48] while I think that that can all be true in specific instances, I love this reframe. Of love is about boundaries. Creating space for a person to exist and [00:26:00] trusting that the other one will help you hold that space and respect that space. Woo. I love that. That makes so much sense to me. That feels so special to me, and it is not something that I was ever taught, not by the media, not by dating books, and not by my romantic partners. So thank you, Ben. 

[00:26:19] Next I asked Laura Moses, my friend, and the co-author of things you should already know about dating You fucking Idiot. What comes to mind when I ask her about independence? And this is what she said.

[00:26:33] Independence in a relationship means to me that I've remained my own whole person, not half of a whole. And what that looks like to me is doing things without my partner, especially by myself and especially with my single friends. Here's a super specific example. When you make dinner plans with a friend, don't assume your partner's included.

[00:26:51] I can't tell you how many times I made a plan with a girlfriend and showed up to drinks, ready to fucking dish, and they had their hubby and tow like, I love your partner [00:27:00] probably, but I'd rather hang with you, and that's what I thought was happening. So don't assume that you means you plus partner. Keep your own identity, do things without your partner, and let them have their own things too.

[00:27:10] I think I speak for all singles when I say, um, fuck yeah. Please do not ambush us with your love unannounced. I'm kidding. Kind of. But yes, I would lose my mind if this happened to me, and thankfully it never has. That's very annoying and also hilarious. In the same vein, it's okay to not, we yourselves.

[00:27:31] Like we've all been around that person who refuses to speak from themselves and has to instead make everything about, we love that place. Yeah, we love to get the breadstick there, or we can't yelp it anymore because we got banned for being too annoying. You get where I'm going with this. Anyway, I asked my friend Shannon, who's been with her husband for almost all of eternity, about the basis of their love, and, uh, spoiler alert, it's independence.

[00:27:53] When most people think about independence in a relationship, they think about separation or on the road to divorce, but I've [00:28:00] always felt like independence is the lifeblood of a committed relationship. My now husband and I took seven years to decide if we wanted to be married, and a big part of that was because we were both afraid of losing our independence.

[00:28:12] I'm an only child. He's basically an only child due to the age difference of a sibling. So we both grew up with a lot of autonomy and privacy and just independence in our lives, and all of the messages about marriage are like, that's gone and now you're one unit. And that never appealed to us, but we realized that we could have.

[00:28:32] A totally committed, loving relationship where we had independence over how we spend this hour of our time or our passions and goals, and we would never feel separated. It would actually just bring us together. Just fuel the fire of curiosity, which is what you need after years and years and years in your relationship that we realize that independence is really the basis of our love. 

[00:28:58] When I interviewed [00:29:00] renowned sex and relationship therapist, Anne Kerner, I shared with him my fear about getting bored. I am afraid of things getting stale or old and losing desire. It's an actual fear of mine. And while I'm far from an expert, one thing that I've gleaned from books, friends and thought experts is that desire, needs space. Desire needs independence. Just like fire needs, oxygen in order to keep burning. Desire needs room to stretch, its metaphorical legs. Which makes so much sense because I like pizza, but I don't want it for every meal.

[00:29:37] It's good. But I think part of what makes it good is that I can't have it all the time anyway. My friend Anita, is married to one of my favorite men, an insanely talented director who leaves her for months at a time to go shoot in war-torn countries, and she is by far one of the more independent moms that I know.

[00:29:58] But recently we were having dinner [00:30:00] and I told her that if I could wave my magic wand, I would want what she has with her husband, Chris. So this is what she had to say.

[00:30:07] Independence in a relationship for me comes down to knowing that I want to be with that person and not need that person. As your lives intertwine, whether you move together, your families meet each other, your friends all hang out together, you have kids, and there's shared responsibilities there. It's very easy to fall into the trap of needing that person, but that's a feeling that's actually based on fear and control and can cause a lot of misplace, passion, desire, and love.

[00:30:46] I think if you can look at your partner honestly and say, I can do everything in our lives on my own. I can be a mom, I can make a living. I have friends, I have [00:31:00] things to do. I don't need you. In my life, you look at them and you say, I'm doing all of these great things and I want you in my life beside me doing it with me, and I want you to want me.

[00:31:14] Besides you doing all the things that you love to do, the minute you start bringing need in the picture is when you start depending on other people or that person for things that take away your sense of self or your sense of ability and your sense of common sense of how to get things done. And while I love to rely on people, especially my husband, I don't need him to do anything for me.

[00:31:44] I want him to be in my life. And those are the basic, simplest things that I can think about when it comes to feeling independent within a relationship.

[00:31:55] Zers. Okay. What I'm hearing is there's a difference between [00:32:00] reliance and need. And Anita's advice is to never let yourself need to the extent that if your relation disappeared tomorrow, you wouldn't be able to survive. And I think that's totally valid. And while not everyone is gonna be in a relationship where both partners work, maybe that just looks like financial literacy and a assertiveness on the part of the parent that isn't collecting a paycheck.

[00:32:23] And similarly when it comes to handling the kids, maybe that looks like one parent going outta town and making sure that both parents can handle the kids on their own, even if that tends to fall predominantly the shoulders of one of the caretakers. For me, when I hear this, I see my old self. I see the person that was hoping that somebody else was going to make her life better.

[00:32:44] That someone else held the keys to my own happiness. So this advice really resonates with me. Okay. For some lighter advice, I turned to a famed relationship columnist and a previous podcast guest.

[00:32:58] I'm Meredith Goldstein, the advice [00:33:00] columnist at the Boston Globe and host of the Love Letters podcast. So I have decided that every ex-boyfriend, at least of mine, and probably out there straight ex-boyfriends, I should say, loves the Wire and the band, the hold steady.

[00:33:15] In fact, I once said that the Hold steady is the official soundtrack. To every ex-boyfriend. So freedom to me in a relationship means not having to go to a hold steady concert if you don't want to. And it means not having to watch The Wire. And by the way, I know The Wire is a wonderful television show. I kind of got into the season about the Baltimore Sun, but I didn't really keep going with it.

[00:33:36] And to me, Yes, your partner might really like the wire, you don't have to watch the wire. That is freedom. You can watch whatever you want and you can listen to whatever you want.

[00:33:47] So obviously I'm a little bit kidding, but I do think having to adjust your taste for somebody else is not freedom. I also think that. Freedom means not having to think about somebody 24 7. If you're thinking [00:34:00] about whether somebody likes you and is treating you right and is good enough and is additive to your life all the time, they're probably not.

[00:34:06] I love just freedom to have space in your brain and the right relationship will give you plenty of space in your brain. so. happy fourth.

[00:34:13] My final friend is Todd Strauss Olsen, a writer and director who watched 65 Romcoms from 1988 to 2007 in order to prepare for directing, isn't It Romantic, which I mention because his message has a lot to do with the ideas we hold about our loved ones. And the expectations that develop over time. And I think a lot of that is reflected in movies, especially rom-coms.

[00:34:42] which feels extra pertinent. when I listened to everyone's messages, Todd's was the one that I immediately found myself saying, wow, I hope that my future partner feels this way. I hope that whoever I end up with will give me this independence. [00:35:00] So without further ado,

[00:35:01] independence to me in a relationship is to release my partner from my image and expectation of them. You know, like I free you of it. I free you of my idea of who you're supposed to be. I allow you to be a person again, not, um, trying to like live up to my made up expectations of what you're supposed to be like and to hope for that, um, back in exchange.

[00:35:28] I hope that today left you with some inspirational moments and some different perspectives to think about In closing, I think that for me, love is a Venn diagram We are each two circles who overlap and our relationship is the part that overlaps and it gets to be unique to us, tailored to us, but it's just one part of us.

[00:35:50] It's just one part of the circle. It's not the whole thing.

[00:35:53] And there are boundaries around the part that overlaps preventing it from bleeding into the [00:36:00] other circles and vice versa. I think independence creates mystery and desire, and it can also help push one another to evolve and grow and become better people together. In short, independence feels like something worth fighting for, at least to me.

[00:36:17] So with that in mind, I wish you all a happy 4th of July, a happy Independence Day. Please don't drink and drive. I know that that doesn't have much to do with this show directly, but I have lost loved ones to drinking and driving. So please, if you're listening to this, consider getting a ride share, walking, truly anything. I love you and I thank you for being listeners and I'll see you next Tuesday.

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