How to Meet people IRL with Lane Moore

[00:16:00] Hello, friends, future friends, haters, and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Epold, and there's an anonymous survey in today's show notes. It should take you less than five minutes. I might even take you two and it will directly affect the future of this show. So if you have an opinion on the future of this show, please fill out the survey.

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Okay, are you burnt out on dating apps and want to learn how to meet people in real life? Do you find yourself dreading confrontation with your friends? Because today's episode is for you. my special guest is a relationship expert who wrote a book about friendship [00:17:00] called You Will Find Your People.

They can be But I think it perfectly applied to romantic relationships. So much so, that we really oscillate between both throughout the entire episode. In fact, if every time you hear us talking about friends, you swap that for girlfriends or boyfriends, the episode makes total sense and rings 100 percent true.

Which is why I love this episode, and I'm pretty sure that you will too. Lastly, a quick word about today's sponsor, Osea. As an act of self care, I would highly, highly recommend getting your holiday shopping done now so that you're not panicking last minute this year.

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Get 10 percent off your first order site wide with the code crimes at oceamalibu. com. Head to o s e a [00:19:00] malibu. com and use the code crimes for 10 percent off. Okay, without further ado,

lane Moore, welcome to Crimes of the

Oh, thank you so much. I'm excited to talk to

I am too. We have some good mutual friends, so I've been excited about this. I texted Akilah

so great. One of my favorite humans on the entire planet. Yeah

I know, I, I was like, I have Lane on the show. Is there anything I should ask? She gave me a, she gave me a cue that I'll, I'll drop in.

That's great. I'm excited

Yeah, but just to like really dive in there, I would love to know how do you think making friends is very similar to day and night?

Oh, it's so It's so similar and it's so funny because I just right off the bat. Um, There's literally a chapter in you will find your people about how I think we should be treating Our friendships more like our romantic relationships. And of course I don't mean, you know, you should make out with your friends unless that's what you want to do.

Um, but what I mean is that. Um, we tend to put them in these different compartments where we're like, Oh, friends are these people [00:20:00] that we have these kind of surface level relationships with. You don't go too deep. Don't wear them out. Don't talk about anything serious. You know, so much of our culture has historically been about.

So, your friends kind of, uh, are there to bide your time until you meet your husband. And then every, all your energy is supposed to go to him. You bring him all of your problems and your friends you just have fun with. That's all it is. That's what we tell women. And I just couldn't disagree more. And I know that that is why so many of us our friendships are kind of hollow, especially when you think about, you know, we're being told that so, so often, even in these kind of subliminal ways.

But then also we're watching TV shows where like, they've had a friendship for 30 years and it's like they're soulmate and all this stuff. And so we're being told these conflicting things. We want the things we see on TV. But we're also being told, like, don't bring that [00:21:00] stuff to your friendship. This is just supposed to be light.

We don't know how to navigate. We're not taught how to navigate, you know, how do you bring up when there's like a grievance in the friendship? How do you bring these up? And I posit in, in this, in this book, and I deeply believe that We're supposed to be doing just as much work on our friendships as we're doing with our partners.

Because our sticky stuff, our pain from the past, our pain from past relationships, our pain from our childhood, that all comes up in our friendships, you know? And if we can't talk about that, because that's not what you do in friendships, we just, we need to start over. So I really, it's so similar. You're gonna be You're gonna have those triggers come up.

You're gonna have disagreements. You're gonna have misunderstandings. You know, it's not the way, as much as I wish it was, it's not the way it is on TV where it's like you never fight. You're never misunderstood. You never don't get what you need from somebody. You're never [00:22:00] ghosted by a friend. You never have to end a friendship.

These are all things we face in our romantic lives and we face them in our friendships. It's just true.

100 Percent agree with what you're saying. One, it's wild to me that we are expected to be incredible at relationships, incredible at sex, incredible at love. We're never taught it. It's very much like a taxes thing.

It's like we get set up to get, to fail and get fucked in the worst way. But also you're so right. Like so many of the issues that we face. Either in friendships or in our romantic lives are the same issues.

Yes, so one of the things that is literally exactly that, um, so I talked a lot in my first book, How to Be Alone, about attachment styles and how those have affected me throughout my life and reading about that and learning about that has affected me throughout my life. And then when I was writing this book, I started to realize, Oh my God!

The only conversations that we have about attachment styles and [00:23:00] attachment theory, anything like that, is always centered around romantic relationship. When I had a huge realization that I was like, Oh my God! But like, So many of us are playing out the same attachment disorder, you know, dynamics, uh, insecure attachments, all these things in our friendships.

I have struggled with anxious attachment in my romantic relationships and I realized I struggle with it in my friendships too. I had attracted a lot of avoidant partners in the past romantically and I had attracted a lot of avoidant friends. Some people, it doesn't have that crossover, but for so many of us, we're taking our struggles.

Um, with us in any kind of relationship. So this centering around, you know, the idea that it's only going to happen in your romantic relationships and that's all we need to focus on, that's all we need to work on is frankly bullshit.

could, could not agree more and I'm debating whether I should keep going on this or bring up the fact that you also have had like a dating show for a hundred years

Yeah.

I'll just go do that. [00:24:00] So, okay. You do Tinder Live. You've done Tinder Live for the dawn of time.

Yeah. Since the dawn of dating apps, which does feel like they've been around for a thousand years now because that's how it feels spiritually to have used them. Yeah.

yes, yes, yes. I think T 2012, right? Yeah. That's like

so many lifetimes ago.

something like that 2012 or 2013. Cause it was like my, you know, yeah,

something like that.

Yes. So would you say is the biggest change you've seen in the last decade?

It's so funny that you say that because I was just talking about this on my podcast where I was like, you know, people always want to know like what has changed and the answer is nothing. I have seen no change. Have you seen a change? Have you seen like people acting better, being better? Like not really, not a marked Change.

If you did, everyone you know would be in love. Everyone. There you go. Okay, [00:25:00] I, I, when I hear change, I think positive change, but I'm just like, no, because People are only going to change if they have to change. If, if the, if the, well some people, I'll say that. Some of us are like doing our own work and we want to change for ourselves and for the world.

Some people, the people who are bringing the toxicity to dating apps, are only ever going to change if they're like forced to change. If the app like didn't allow it or like, you know, uh, or if there was some kind of, I don't know. But, what I will say is, I think a lot of the, the toxic men on dating apps, and that's really what, uh, Tinder Live goes, goes running towards, uh, like it's running into a burning building, They don't think the problem is them.

They're never gonna think the problem is them. You know, so many of the profiles that I have seen over the years, Are these profiles, and I'm sure you've seen them, of men who are just yelling in their dating app profiles. Just like, first of all, why do you have a photo of you with all your hotter friends, and you're not [00:26:00] even the hottest one.

Second of all, I don't want, no drama. No one wants to date you if you have kids. Blah, blah, it's like this list of grievances. I have no reason to think you're hot. No reason to like you. Half the time it's a photo of a meme. You don't even have a face, and yet you have a list of demands. Those types of people, there's never going to be a change.

There's never gonna be a change because, like, that guy thinks he's the king and he deserves everything. And these women should be flocking and they're not? There just need to be different women. Surely someone will like this. No.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, that is, those profiles really do. It depends on the day. Like, they either give me a giggle or they make me want to blow my brains out. where it's like, Must work out.

No kids.

it's Right, it's like, no fatties, no blah, blah, blah. And it's like, again, I would love to even see even one photo of you since you're such a perfect specimen of a man. But it's like, and they're like, oh, well, I can't have a photo because I'm in a very high Position at my company.

You're like, no you're not! What are you, what is this? You're in the [00:27:00] CIA, and it's really hard to date? Shut up! It's

by the way, I do have friends that work at the government. Even if you're in the CIA, like you're allowed to date, you can't tell, you have to use whatever your alias is, but.

But it's also just like, those guys definitely are not, or they're cheating on their wives, or whatever it is. And it's just like, when you said, like, depending on the day, seeing those profiles either like make you laugh or make you feel horrible, honestly, that, literally that is why I started Tinder Live.

That's why I created it. Because I knew immediately, I was like, oh, seeing enough of these, you're going to go, seeing these profiles, you're going to feel so, if you're doing it alone, you're going to feel so. Like it's, like it's your fault somehow. Like you're the only one who's getting these really crappy profiles.

Other people, other women must be getting really good guys, must be getting really great messages. They're not experiencing this, this toxicity and it feels personal and it feels exhausting and it feels lonely. And I was like, no, no, no, [00:28:00] no. I want to do this with like projector screen of the profile. We're all experiencing it together so that So many women can see that this, these are the profiles everyone's being served, everyone's being served the same food.

Um, and also to be able to have somebody on stage who is able to be fully in control, not like, I can always outweird them. Uh, because I play a character on Tinder Live and it's totally improvised and it's like I'm

like,

Very much in control. If, if I'll give you like an example for people who haven't seen the show, but like one time in an early Tinder Live show, there was a guy in his profile and he was like, no feminists.

He couldn't even spell feminism. And yet this was a requirement. No feminists. Uh, if you're a feminist, swipe left. And so, uh, I,

of course, because

I swiped right, of course, because that's what Tinder Live is. I was like, what's a feminist? And he was like, it's somebody who believes in equality among the genres.

genres.

Not genders, genres.

genres.

[00:29:00] And I was like, oh, so like, a comedy, or like, an anime is like the same? I am not a firmness, I do not believe that. And he was like, uh, okay.

he okay. Like,

so, just lean into the chaos. But like, you would never do that when you're like, home alone. Because you're just gonna be like, sad. Because you just wanna feel loved.

But

I,

I like that you said that. Because I hear that from so many women who are

like,

I'm able to find such catharsis and like just to be able to laugh for an hour, whereas if I was, you know, and also sometimes people will, women will go home and they'll be like, I just realized it doesn't matter what I say to them.

Because when you're doing it alone, you're like, I have to say the right thing. I have to present myself the right way. I've literally told men on Tinder Live that I was like trapped in the woods and they've been like, Oh, I'll help you out. Like you could say anything. It doesn't matter. Literally! They were like, whoa, where?

I'll come send you. And it's just like, it's not that serious. Not that I'm trying to marry the guy who's trying to rescue me from the woods, but it [00:30:00] doesn't matter. You know? Cause sometimes I'll say really wild shit on the show and the guy turns out to be kind of cool. So it's like, you really can't say the wrong thing.

And then I will say it's cool too because I hear from men, so many men have no idea what we are dealing with on dating apps. And when they watch Tinder Live, they're like, Oh, I didn't know. This is what you're subjected to. And I'm like, yeah,

it's like if you raise the bar a little bit, you're going to look like Prince Frickin Charming. Like, I don't think you understand how close the, the glass ceiling is.

It's

You know what I

the bar is like beneath the earth's core is what I always say because it's really, it's really true. It's just like, oh my god, you showed me the slightest amount of respect. You wanted to hear what I had to say. You asked me something other than like, How are you? What? I don't even How are you?

How was your week? or like, or like, [00:31:00] W Y D. You couldn't even type it out. You couldn't even type it out. Also, I'm pretty sure you just are copy pasting W Y D.

To everyone. Yes.

Yes. So, with that said, do you still use dating apps or have

you Yeah,

I'm good. I, I, I use them for, I use them for Tinder Live, and then I'm like, I'm good because I only feel joy when I'm using it for comedy now. I just don't, because every now and again, and I don't know if you do this, I hope you don't, I hope you're free, but every now and again it's so tempting to feel, to dive back in and be like, I don't know, maybe someone incredible.

just joined like this week and I'm going to get him. And then you swipe through and you're like, no, or, or you match with somebody who you're like, this person seems great. Surely we will talk. You will not. So it's, it's, it's, you know, it's just like, okay, well, why don't, why do I keep expecting like different results?

Right, but [00:32:00] because we've been sold it, but that is perfect because your book lays out the perfect way to meet people because like one of the things that I get is like, okay, so Apps don't work. We know this but I don't really know how to meet people or especially Men that I want to want to date and granted your book is you will find your people It's like a guide to making friends, but I think that the same rules still apply

They do. It's, it's, it's the same thing. you know, and, and we do need, We just do need an overhaul in the way that we talk about meeting people and the way that we talk like how easy that is and what we have to sift through because I know a lot of times when I've done interviews or stuff like that about this book and people will ask me like what's the best place to meet people and I'm like Can we get away from looking at a lot of these like sticky nuanced relational things?

in this really like Simplified way. Do you know what I mean? Like I just feel like for so long we had this advice that [00:33:00] it was like the best place to meet people Is to join a club. I don't want to join a fucking club. I don't even know Do you know what I mean? Like we're a lot of the advice we're given is so boring and so reductive but that was like a I don't know if it was like Generational or the type of thinking but just this idea of like you have a problem.

Here is the one answer I don't I don't agree. I really don't and so I think that's what I try to do in, in all of my work, where it's, because here's what happens. If you have somebody that you see on like a TV show, or you hear on a podcast or whatever, and they're like, go to a bar! There's gonna be people who listen to that, and they're like, I don't drink. I hate bars. I've tried to go to bars. It didn't work. And then what's gonna happen? The person listening to that is gonna be like, Oh, I failed. There is an answer, and that is it, and it didn't work for me. Something's wrong with me.

That's why I hate that kind of advice. So it's like,

Instead, I wanted

So

kind of approach that from a different perspective that holds all parts of somebody. Sometimes

you really don't want to leave your house right now. So like the [00:34:00] answer for, you know, how do you meet people? It's like, maybe you don't need to meet them right now.

Maybe you're not in a place for it,

for it,

so different from like the advice that we're given, which is like, you have problem, here's how to fix it. And it's like, what? No, sometimes I think I just want

I just want

allow themselves to kind of make space for that. And then also, you know, I think I, I just really

want people to get away from, like, putting this pressure on themselves to, like, do it the right way.

So, what I talk about more in the book is to kind of look at the things that keep you from connecting with people. Kind of look at the things that are keeping you afraid of that. Like, examine those things. And then, also in your day to day life, just be a little bit more open. It doesn't have to be, like, All right, get ready for your full time job of making friends.

That sounds exhausting. I don't have energy for that. I don't, that doesn't sound fun just, you know, when you go to your yoga class or you go to pick up bread or whatever, like, I think so many of us have these little moments [00:35:00] in our lives when we're out in the world or even online. There's a whole chapter about internet friendships.

These little moments in life where we have these little connections, can you explore them a little bit more deeply? Can you, the person who you always end up sitting next to in yoga class, is that somebody that maybe there's something there with? You know what I mean? Just these moments of vulnerability that

we're scared to do at this point.

Yeah, so it's like, not putting yourself out there because you don't want to get rejected by this person, or seem like a weirdo for being like, Hey, would you ever want to get like coffee after class?

Because you might not know them very well.

 Yeah. Or even just, I al I always say it, it's really just opening the door. That's all it is. You know, it, it's, it's op because somebody has to do it. Like there's literally, a girl who's like always next to me in one of my yoga classes, and I feel like we're both very introverted and I haven't, I haven't opened that door because.

I've done that plenty of times in yoga, and it's not ready yet, and I know one day, maybe a month from now, we'll talk, and [00:36:00] we'll laugh about how we were each waiting for the other person to open the door. I know it. I feel it in my bones, you know? Like, you just see each other, and you're like, Hmm, because it's such a, when you go to like an exercise class or whatever, you're so like, Do I want to talk to people?

Am I in the zone? I don't know. So I feel it out. That's really how I do it. Sometimes, I opened that door, like, one time there was a girl in my own class who was late, uh, and I, like, said to her after class because she seemed cool, and I was just like, ugh, that's like, that's such a horrible feeling, and I think we were all just like, glad you were able to make it into class or whatever, just something, just very human, and that's it, you know, and you know somebody has this kind of, embarrassing moment of they were scrambling or whatever and just was like oh yeah that was we've all been there like no one was mad at you or whatever and we ended up talking and it's like now we talk all the time and it's just those moments where you're like this person seems kind of cool let me say one thing maybe they'll be like she's not for me and that's okay then that's not my person that's okay I didn't say anything weird I didn't like I didn't, weird or out, I didn't say like, I just skinned [00:37:00] an animal. Like, I made an offhanded comment. We're either gonna connect further, or we won't. But I, but it's man, so much of, I think, what keeps us from meeting people is not that we're not going to this one magical place where everyone's meeting everybody.

It's that fear. It's that fear of rejection. I

Yeah. Which is, I mean, I think a theme for dating, friendships, and it's interesting that you I will say that because like that's also my advice, like I feel like I'm really in tune to like when I'm on and when I'm off, like, so I know if I'm like, sometimes I'm running errands or I'm doing shit and I'm like, I am not trying to engage

Right!

my. Like my dream man could cross my path and like, it's not going to be today because today is not the day that I have the light on, you know what

I mean? Like I'm off, I'm off duty. We're not doing this. And then other times the light is on, I'm on duty. And so I'm taking the extra two seconds [00:38:00] to let any woman in my vicinity that I actually think looks cute or pretty or her hair is great or whatever.

That all of those things are true. I might be commenting on dogs. Just whatever it is like and Having that muscle be strengthened in these like really low stakes everyday situations Makes it so much easier to talk to people when I think that they're hot. It also makes it so much easier to Just be social in general

up. And it's uh,

because it's like a muscle. Yeah

it really is. And it's like the more we practice it, we see that it's not as scary. That's literally what it is. We see that it's not as scary. We're more open to it. We see that it's possible. Once you see that it's possible to have these connections with people. It's, it is easier to meet people in that way and it doesn't matter the location, it's really, I really think that it's like, it really is, yeah, developing that muscle.

And the other thing too, when you mentioned your light not being on sometimes, an important thing to remember too is [00:39:00] sometimes my light's on and the person I'm talking to, their light's off. And that's not a personal rejection, you know, like, cause I've had moments where I've been like, oh, I was like really friendly to this person at the store or whatever, and they were just like, I don't care.

But you know what? I've had moments where like someone comes up to me and my dog on the street and I'm like, I don't, mm mm, my light is off right now, I'm exhausted, there's stuff, I don't have time for a meet cute right now, I just don't want to talk to you. And it's not personal. And that person could have been wonderful, maybe we'll meet in a week when my light is on and I'll like them, so.

If we can kind of remember these things when our fear of rejection comes up and we're just like, oh, their light is off. That's okay.

Yeah, it's interesting. I have a friend, her name's Cass, and um, I met her because I was gardening in my front yard and she was on a walk with one of her friends in I think 2021. And she lived in San Francisco at the time and was just like down in LA maybe like checking it out and was like, I think I want to move here.

And so we exchanged information after this.[00:40:00] I don't know, maybe 30 minutes just like talking in front of my front yard. And, uh, then she ended up moving to the same neighborhood that I live in. And we like legitimately are friends and legitimately hang out. And it's an interesting thing because like when people are like, how did you meet?

It's like, oh, she was literally walking by my house.

but that's and that's what I'm saying. And I think that's also why it drives me so nuts when people like want the one place to meet people because all of my friends the answer is either like, like you were saying, the weirdest It just was fate, or it was, like, the internet. Like, but I, I've never had one place that was like, You know what?

Anytime I've needed a friend, I go pick them up at this one store. Like, what? No, of course not! That's not, that's not how anyone is, is doing this. If they are, I feel like we'd all know what it was, where it's like, yeah, there's a Walgreens on this one exit, but like, everyone meets really great friends. Like, stop talking about it like that.

It's just so, stupid to me when I hear

Yes, I literally, I just interviewed [00:41:00] a dating coach who has been doing it for like 17 years and, uh, I said to her, her book's coming out in January. I was like, dude, I actually liked your book and I don't like dating books. And I was like, the reason why is that you're not walking around pretending like you have the answers because the answers don't exist.

If the answers existed. You and I would have ridden off into the sunset with our happily ever afters.

Right. And it's like, you know, I guess what I would say to that is like, I think the answers exist, but I don't think one answer exists. I think that's the problem and that's, I think that's what you're saying too, where it's like a lot of the advice we're given, it's like, Girl, you're just not doing this one thing.

Why won't you do that, you idiot? And it's like, what the, how did that style of advice get so popular? There's not one answer for everybody. That's not it. There's so many I well and a lot of a lot of dating books a lot of bitch get it together books I don't like it. I don't like it. It just it doesn't there's so many people that leaves out I've never [00:42:00] related to that stuff.

And honestly, I Think that's why a lot of my work a lot of my writing a lot of the stuff that I do in the world It's kind of a fuck you to that. To that like, ugh, get it together. This has been really easy for me. Well then guess what? I don't want to hear your book about it. If you have had the easiest time I don't want to hear from you!

Why would I want to hear from you if you've never struggled with dating and yet you're writing a dating book? Why are we going to you for advice? You've never struggled with making friends and yet you're writing a book about how it's easy. I don't Why are these our experts? It's very strange.

Yeah, I do think one of the things that's cool about you is that you're very open about wanting to be loved and I think that is often like weaponized , or at least I have felt at various times in my life, like oh, if you really want to be loved, whether that's romantically or in a friend setting, like I want to have this cool group of friends, or I want to feel chosen by, or just meet my person, https: otter.

ai[00:43:00]

Yeah, of course they do.

It's just every not everyone's yeah, just not everyone's as Honest about wanting it and or honest about their struggles in trying to get it

Cause that's an easier, that's an easier path, you know? Uh, I think a lot of times in my life, I kind of, I didn't understand why I couldn't be the person who needs nothing. The person who's just like, I don't care. That doesn't matter to me. Like, I, I have met people who've been like, Yeah, I don't really care if I have friends or not.

And I'm like, that's extremely strange. Like, you don't need any support. You don't need any camaraderie or joy or fun or backup. Um, you don't need community at all. It just doesn't interest you. But, you know, you think about it, um, that is something that a lot of, that sort of cool girl trope is [00:44:00] something that so many of us were Taught to be in, in friendship and in dating.

And I have never related to that. I, I wrote a, an article for Glamour like years ago that was like, am I the last hopeless romantic? Because it felt like I was meeting so many guys who were just like, you're cool with just like chilling and having horrible sex with me and me never treating you like a human being, right?

And I was like No, absolutely not. Are we all supposed to pretend that? But then, you kind of look around and you will see some people who are like, Yeah, I love this. And you're like, Okay, I guess it's just me. But then, you know, thank God for the ability to talk about these things and write about them because then, after writing that, I heard so many women who were like, Yeah, is it like not cool to want Someone to bring me flowers.

It's not, it's not cool to want someone to have, an emotional openness with me. And, but like, I think a lot of us [00:45:00] are, are coming out of this kind of, if we don't need anything, we'll be chosen. If we're the person who can need the least, if we're the person who doesn't care either way, then we'll get it.

If we play this secret game, we'll get it. But, so many of us are finding out, we never got it when we played that game. You're not going to get it if you're sitting, you know, it's like a, it's like a job. If you're like, honestly, zero salary is cool with me. I just, I'm not one of those like needy people who like needs to be paid for their work.

I'm not like those other girls, you know, like, so then what are we going to get paid? 0. That guy is going to give us 0. He's going to be like, great, what a bargain. I'm going to save my money.

and then, and then he's going to give it to the girl that him

give it

He's gonna,

yeah, he's gonna give it to the woman who's like, I won't settle for less than 500k, and he's gonna be like, okay.

here we go. I, well, I saved it on all these other girls. Yeah.

Oh, who were, who were too cool for it? And it's like, I have so much empathy for that, cause this is what we've been [00:46:00] taught, you know, but it's just like, Oh, I think that's, that kind of, like, people pleasing stuff, and that kind of, like, Oh, I can be perfect if I can mold my needs around what is socially acceptable.

What I've been told is what like hot girls do or whatever we've internalized that like, if you're going to be a woman and you're going to do it right, you have to do this. And I really, I

want, yes, I really just want so many of us to like, be able to be honest about what we actually want, what we actually need.

Because what's funny is. I, and I've noticed this so much from talking about it for so long, so many of us are like playing this game because we're trying to fit in the amount of like DMs that I get of people who are like, I thought I was the only one I feel that way too secretly. I think almost all of us secretly.

Are like, we of course have needs, have things that we want in our relationships, have a deep want to be [00:47:00] loved and, and to have someone be romantic with us and to be like, and we're, it's just the, it's like not cool to talk about. But if we all raised our hands at the same time and we're like, wait, can we just cut the shit?

We, I think we all want this, the spell would be broken, you know?

Yeah, yeah, so let's say I'm coming to you as a friend and I'm like, I actually do want the flowers and I, I do want to be treated well and I don't feel like I'm getting that and it can be in a romantic setting or let's just keep it like for friends. Like I know you have so many chapters on kind of all of this, but I would love to hear your advice for like, if I feel like I'm not attracting the kind of friendships that I necessarily, like, I show up better than my friends show up for me. How do I go about adjust, like, how do I go about changing that? How do I adjust that? What should I

So, this is a lesson that I have, uh, had to learn many times. Uh, that's the thing, like with everything I talk about, the call is coming from inside the house, which I, that's, that's, that's always what I want when I'm like listening

[00:48:00] to advice.

same. That's why I

right.

this show.

That's literally why we're doing this. We're like, yeah, that's been my struggle forever.

And that's why I know it. And I'm not like, what? Girl, you need to do better. That's so weird that you're struggling with this. Oh god, I hate it.

I know, people come on and share their, like, deepest, darkest, rejection stories. And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, ditto.

Yeah! No, straight up. I'm like, this is my sweet spot. Like, just, yeah, we're all, meh. Um, So, the frustrating thing is that the answer to this, and I say this because it's frustrating for me every time I realize this is the answer and I know. Because people who struggle with, people pleasing or like giving maybe more than other people or things like this, what we really struggle with is boundaries.

And so of course, it sucks that it's like, that's what it has to be. But I would say you have to mitigate how much you're giving because sometimes we think that if we just keep giving, if we just keep giving, that they're going to eventually give it back. But like, and it's that kind of. [00:49:00] I can change them.

And that's another thing that like, we think only exists in romantic relationships, but it exists in our friendships. I've done this so many times in like, Oh, I can like train them to be a better friend. And look, if they're like a good friend, you can train each other to like be great friends. You can tell people your needs.

You can expand on it. That's true.

But

You can learn each other's love languages, like if you're somebody that really loves gifts and I know that, then I can start to be like, uh, Lane would love this little thing, like that's how I can show up for her, as opposed to if you're the type of person that I know just needs to hear that you're doing a great job, like, yes, those are

things that we just naturally pick up on in our friendships, but you're basically saying Like, I'm thinking of someone who I love, love dearly, and she consistently has always overextended herself, like, throughout her

whole life with most of her friendships.

And if, like, if I were to show you kind of the [00:50:00] history of both, you would be like, damn, she deserves better. So I want her to hear this.

No, and I get it and it's like I think the tough thing is to one of the things that's come up with me a lot because I have often been that person where Oh, and and some of some of it is some of it is attachment styles, too And that is like also why I talk about that because there is I do I do talk a lot about this subject in the book because it's so easy to a think we can change people or think like Oh, like this person just sucks and it's like, no, I think that because a lot of times when we're not getting what we need from somebody, it's so hard to just like cut and run because generally speaking, when I've had a friend who like I wasn't getting a lot of my needs met, I was still getting a lot from the friendship.

It's not, it's not that black and white, I think for most of us where it's like, because if you're really getting nothing from somebody. It is a lot easier to leave, but if you're getting like something, but, oh, they're not doing this or they say things [00:51:00] like, and I think this happens, yeah, no, I guess this happens in both.

They say things like, Oh yeah, I really want to do that for you. I'm going to be better about that. And then they just don't. And you're like, Oh fuck, this is. This is just how you are. You're literally not capable of giving me this and that doesn't make you bad But it does make you bad for me

And that's it.

because that's that's really what it is.

It's like you have to look at like Why are you comfortable constantly being disappointed by this person? And of course the answer is We're not comfortable with it. It's deeply uncomfortable. But why are we accepting it? Like, why do we keep going back to this empty well? And being like, maybe there's water in it today.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave five bucks in front of the, the well. And like, I'm gonna, uh, bring them lunch. And it's like, the well will never have water in it. No matter how much we bring to

the well, it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

and it's also interesting because it's like, I use food a lot as an analogy, despite the fact that I hate that analogy. I just think we've been [00:52:00] And everybody can relate to diet culture, eating, all of these dumb things. But if I was, I'm allergic to truffles and truffle oil, which is such a wild

specific.

But like, I know, I know that if I accidentally ingest that, I'm going to be violently ill two to three hours from then. So like, why would I know something's not good for me and then continue to ingest it?

But

it's like what you were, what you were saying, where it's like, they, it doesn't necessarily mean they're bad, but it does mean that they're bad for you. And so then you have this choice where it's like, okay, am I going to honor what's good for me or am I going to continue to try and prove my self worth or, or whatever this exercise is in trying to get this person to treat me differently?

Right. And that's literally what it is. Because so many of us. We want, we want it to work out. We are trying to avoid a friendship breakup at all costs. And also because of the [00:53:00] shame around friendship breakups and because we don't talk about it and because there, there is this idea that it's like the worst thing that could happen.

Because we have internalized that so much that we're like, well, I can't leave this friendship. If I leave this friendship, I ended it. And it's like, well, actually, the issues between you ended it. You just walked away for your own peace.

But it's something I have to remind myself of a lot because we have that internalized, like, you ended a friendship? Who do you think you are, you horrible demon? And it's like, it wasn't working in the same way that If, when you take your like friendship breakup story, the one that you're like the most, not ashamed of, but you feel the most conflicted about, if that was someone you were dating and you took that to somebody and you were like, yeah, I wasn't getting what I needed and they were just kind of treating me like shit sometimes, blah, blah, The other person, if this was in a dating context, would be like, good for you. Get out of that. Someone better exist. With friendship. There's this idea that like, hmm, I don't know if I believe you, you should have worked at it. And it's like, what? No! Yeah.

yes, [00:54:00] that's really interesting. And I also think, God, the parallels are just so similar because the sunk cost fallacy also goes the same way for relationships. Like so many people don't want to leave relationships because they don't want to start over again. They don't want to deal with the breakup.

They don't believe something better is out there. Just all of these things, and I, I love what you said about. like having to make the choice, the healthy choice for you, which isn't always the easy choice or the fun choice, but it's the right choice. So, you mentioned friend breakups. Ugh. and we had talked about how I had Nancy Jo Sales on, and she talked a little bit about like, ghosting, and why it's so painful.

But that happens in you have any tip tips or like advice, for people who are going through breakups? Like, how do you bounce back better?

Yeah, so a lot of it I think is [00:55:00] Repetition because I don't think it's as easy for most of us to be able to be like, you know what? I'm better off and whatever and then like you never think about it again I mean, there are some friendship breakups I've had that happened years ago and I still think about them and there's some part of me that's like Should I have tried harder to fix that?

Should I reach out to them? I miss them and I'm like, no you don't, no you don't. And I just, I talk to myself like I would a nervous little child and be like, no, you don't miss them. I'm so sorry, but you, you miss who they were to you at one point in your life. They are not the same person. The person you miss doesn't exist.

And it depends on the breakup, but I think for a lot of us, that's what it is. It's like we miss what we were at one point in our friendship and then it went awry and we are still, we're kind of gaslighting ourselves and telling ourselves like, I probably didn't try hard enough. I could go back to that and do it better.

Maybe I didn't communicate what [00:56:00] was wrong in the right words to get them to change. Like we're still doing all this. that's not, that's not real. So for me, when those moments come up, I'm like, I try to validate it and say like, yeah, no, it really was a beautiful friendship for a while there. And then that person really hurt you and that wasn't acceptable and we don't need to keep going back and begging somebody to treat us better.

And that really helps my brain because I'm like, oh, that's correct. And also, why aren't they coming and apologizing? Why aren't they coming and trying to fix it? Why does it have to be me going to convince the person who hurt me to heal it? What are we doing there, you know?

that's so interesting. I went through a phase when I was younger, where I lost a lot of girlfriends. And it made me go like, what is wrong with me? Like maybe I'm a bad friend. And there actually was something that was wrong with me and it was not that I was a bad friend, but it goes back to what [00:57:00] we were discussing where it was like, no, it was a boundary issue

and it was a picking issue and it was a rushing in issue.

And it's like, I was affording people that had not earned my trust yet.

Trust privileges. I was not being as clear and firm with my boundaries. And so that led to a lot of, friends that I would classify as like users. And so sometimes on my worst days, I'll look back and be like, see, you are a shitty person.

Like think about all those people. And then I have to be like, wait, girl, stop being a little bitch to yourself. Like those people were not good for you. And your flaw was that you were learning. Like your patterns that you have since worked on and changed, you know, and I think we

do the same thing with dating

But, and, and so much of that, the, the, the differences between the dating and the friendship is that there is such a premium put on having, making a friend and keeping it forever. We don't do that with dating. If it ends, it ends. It's not a good fit. It's not a good fit. Who cares? [00:58:00] It's fine. With friendship, We're like, well, you better keep them forever.

There, there is this, that that's the only good friendship is one that lasts forever. And so, of course, we're gonna keep beating ourself up for that probably more often than we would, you know, some person we dated ten years ago that it didn't work out with, you know. We're gonna, we're gonna think about the friendships more because of this bullshit we have around, well, all friendships supposed to last forever.

And it's funny because I've seen people occasionally on social media or whatever, say things like, and they're very well intentioned, but they'll say things like, Oh, you know, I'm excited to read Lane's book on friendships. I already have really incredible friends, but I'm excited to read it anyway.

And I'm like, and what I always want to say to them, because I know it's well meaning and it's, and that's fine. And I'm sure they do. I believe them. But the one thing we can count on. in this life is that your friendships are going to change. Period. You don't know what is down the road. You cannot tell me that you will never break up with any of those friends.

You cannot tell me that your friend won't have a bunch of kids and you don't have kids and that makes [00:59:00] things weirdly strange for you. You can't tell me that, uh, you won't go through a divorce and all your friends are still married and that won't make you feel weird. You cannot tell me that you're never ever going to need to learn what to do when your friend group changes, what to do when you have a falling out, what to do when you have your first big problem.

So I think I just,

What do you do?

which one of those?

what do you

do when you're like the only single one and everybody's coupled up and it's weird because you're no longer like maybe invited to some of these things, or they start treating your relationship troubles as like, not as important or, you know what I mean? Like

I

do. Yeah, that's a lot of, what I talk about in, in the book too, is these, all these unexpected ways that your friendships could change. Cause I know I've had that where I've been like, Oh, someone moved. And, like, they told me I wouldn't lose them as a friend, but of course I kind of did because in order to maintain a long distance relationship, even if it's a friendship, you gotta do it differently.

And maybe one person can and one person [01:00:00] can't, one person will, one person won't. All these variables, you know? So I just, I just always think it's funny when people are like, my friends are great and it will never change. And I'm like, oh, you sweet, sweet baby. I've just seen it so many times where it changes because you change.

They change. People are ever changing, so, but in terms of, you know, being the only, the only single friend, all of those things, there is a whole, whole chapter on that, because I've had that happen many times, and, and one of the, one of the things that I will say, Is that a lot of it when I have experienced that or it felt like that two things.

One is reaffirming your own worth because everybody is on their own timetable. Everybody's on their own timetable. It's so hard to remember, but we do have this idea that like this other person did it sooner. So they're doing it better. This other person already has that figured it out. So I'm behind and I just.

I don't believe in that. I think most of us don't, but then like subconsciously we do. So that's what we have to work on. And the other thing that I will tell that [01:01:00] person is, all of your friends could break up with their partners any day now. You don't know. Like, not that you're wishing for that, but like, it's so easy to think, Ugh, they're all doing it right.

But I think we need to remind ourselves that like everybody's on their own path and you know, I've, I've seen a lot of, like sometimes, with friends of mine that I've had in the past, when I've had those feelings, I've been like, okay, let's just for fun, would you want to have that partner that they have?

And the answer is no. So like, you gotta try to look at it from some different angles, you know,

Would you ever recommend, like, having a conversation with them and being like, hey, I feel uncomfortable The way that, I mean, I've done this, so I'm, this is I guess a leading question, but I remember I had a friend who was married and anytime I would bring up, any issue that I had with my boyfriend, she would compare it to her and her husband.

And I had to be like, I need you to stop because it's not the same. And, You're, I feel like you're diminishing what I'm going through, or you're constantly, like, trying to make this about you, and it's like, sometimes I just need you [01:02:00] to make it about me.

And, you know, it was an uncomfortable conversation, but it's like, I had to say it.

 advocate for like communication and maybe even over communication. And part of the reason why I am is because so many of, and so many of my relationships, I, when they were over, And this is romantic or not, I would think, Oh, I should have told them what I needed, maybe they didn't know.

Maybe they would have given it to me. And, would argue that in a lot of my relationships, I did tell them. Maybe not as directly, but I feel like the right person would have known. That's just my, feeling on my own past with relationships. like when you were talking about, like, these people were just taking and taking and taking.

Like, the right person would have been like, This is off balance, let me fix it without you having to say it. That's just my right. I'm like, we know this, right? Okay, cool. Uh, I don't feel like I should have had to be like, you should be giving more to our relationship. that's, that's weird. But here's what I love about communicating those needs.

You are [01:03:00] giving somebody a chance to show up for you. And if they don't show up for you, You just saved yourself so much time in the future going back and being like, I wasn't clear enough about what I needed. I'm sure it's my fault and they would have given it to me. No, no, you said, Hey, this is literally what I need.

Can you give it to me? And they said, no,

that's actually a time saver. Or they showed, you know, totally, totally. Yeah. In some way they told you that they couldn't do it. That is a gift.

I fully agree because it's also like, I think some of the, one of the places that people seem to struggle with breakups of any kind is the letting go. And they'll like replay the movie or they replay the good times or they just don't want to let go. And I think part of it is, it's a lot

easier when it's very clear. then the

precisely.

like,

exactly

The choice is either you or them, or this, when I say them, it's not even them. It's this idea that you're hoping for, you know, like, cause if you get really clear about. What it is that you need and those needs aren't being met we just wouldn't do that in other areas of our life Like if [01:04:00] I was going to the doctor or it's like, I mean, I guess people do that with their nail techs Those videos are always going viral But it's like if I kept going to the same nail lady and every single time she fucked up my nails I'd find a different nail lady

yeah,

but the tough

she'd probably only have to, she'd only have to fuck it up a couple times and find a new nail lady.

Like, it doesn't even have to be consistent. She could like, she could hit it out of the park 75 percent of the time. But if she's fucking up 25 percent of the time, I'm probably like, nah, I'm good.

But you know, and, but you know what? I would argue it could still happen with your nail lady. And here's why. If you have bonded with your nail lady in any way, if you like, talk to her a lot and she like, That bond is what fucks us up. If you, I guess if you don't talk to your nail lady at all and it's like really transactional, it's a lot easier to leave.

But if you bond to somebody, so many of us have that loyalty and we want to be like, Yeah, that's the person who does my nails. I love her. She's so great. Do you know what I mean? And then that would kind of keep you going back to them because you bought it. And I say that as somebody who's had people who [01:05:00] I'm like, Oh, they always they kind of fuck it up sometimes.

But I don't want to leave because like, What am I going to do? Find a new person and like, I kind of like them and do you know what I mean? So it's so funny

that you say that because I was like, Oh wait, I've done this. Right? And like, what am I doing? And she's been so good to me and she did this for me, which I'm like, I still struggle with it.

Even if it is somebody doing some kind of like beauty service, I'm realizing it as I was thinking about it. I was like, Nope, I struggle with that shit too.

Yeah, that's true. That's, no, that's, that's actually really real, but I think that

But what you're saying is still, is still true, right? What you're saying is still true. But it's so hard once we have a connection because we. The good news about that struggle is that it is showing, it's like shining a light on the part of us that deeply wants community, deeply wants connection, deeply is ready for connection, even if it's with our, our nail lady and we're just like, I don't know, I love her, even though she's like doing this, I think if we follow that spark and say, okay, it's not this nail lady, what if, and I do this a lot, what if you could [01:06:00] have a nail lady Who you really and you feel like, you know, there's something about them that like their energy is really great and you love spending time with them the same way you felt about this other person and they do your nails right every time.

Can we find that? Cause that's what I have to tell myself. I'm like there, it's possible to love this person who does this thing. You, who gives you what you need every time, who can bring you the good things about this person you miss. This person that isn't working with, you could find both in another person.

Yeah, it's a lot of like healing is reframing and being really like clear with yourself and then also believing in the hope for a better future.

And I think it's when we get, we get caught up in the like, but this was my best friend since I was three or, you know, when we were, 25, she saved my life, proverbial or literally, you know, like, or whatever it is, or, you know, but we were gonna get married.

We were engaged and he was my dream man. It's like we have these stories, these narratives that ultimately we're giving more power to than what our real needs are, what

[01:07:00] Because they're also all in the past. They're all in the past. If you're talking about somebody exclusively in the past,

 you're, you're in trouble. That's always, that's always what it is, where it's like, well, okay, name five great things about it now. If you can't do that, that's, that's your answer.

Yeah, yeah, totally. Especially if you're the only one that's coming to the table. Like you cannot be the only one that wants to work on a friendship. If the other person, like if you're like, I'm not being treated well and you've expressed it and they're breadcrumbing you or they're like saying I'm going to be better and then they never do or they just don't care. You cannot continue to give little pieces away or you'll have nothing left,

Yeah. Or, I mean, honestly, for, for a lot of people who struggle with that, you probably have nothing left now. You probably already have nothing left when you've been in that dynamic for a long time.

 But would you also argue that if you say are a people pleaser with bad boundaries and a strong desire to be loved and community and all of that, [01:08:00] that you could start today to turn it around and not be that in the future?

Oh, of course. Yeah. I mean, you can, you can change it at any time. I mean, I think that that's, uh, I think one of the people, you know, one of the things that people who struggle with that, you know, myself included, I've struggled with that a lot. We really are forgetting that we have power in this situation, that we have a choice.

And we do. And I think one of the hardest things, but one of the best things that we can do is like, to, to choose ourselves above this situation. And, and that's when it changes. Literally, that's when it changes. And it's like, it's One of the things I do, like, cause I get, you know, so many questions, like, advice, like, what do I do?

What do I do with this? Sometimes, one of the things I do is I tell myself, I give myself the advice that I would give to a listener or a reader or someone on social media, like, and it really helps where I'm just like, stop it, that person sucked, why are we romanticizing them? You know, like, like a little bit of that tough love that I would, I would give a stranger, I give it to myself.

And It helps a lot. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's [01:09:00] it's so much easier to swap yourself out, put a friend, a stranger, whoever, and then suddenly we're like, we wouldn't tolerate any of this shit that we're

currently tolerating. So the holidays are here and it can be a really hard and lonely time for a lot of people.

Yeah.

I know you've written about this.

Um. Before I let you go, I would just love, like, do you have any advice, words of, I don't know, to help get people through this tough time?

The biggest thing that I want to impart to people, because this is something that nobody ever told me. And so now, uh, it's like all I want to, to tell people, because I wish somebody had, had told me this, you are, you're allowed to enjoy the holidays as well.

And so, and, and what I mean by that is, So much of the really tired model we have of like Well, my parents want me to come and do this because blah blah blah, even though like they kind of treat me like shit and they do this and they do this and this is really painful, but I have to [01:10:00] do it because it's my family.

No. No, I, well, you know, I know not everybody has the choice to say, fuck that, but so many of us do. And it's just that we feel like socially we can't or else we're bad. And

 You're allowed to say like, I don't want to go do that because it's painful for me.

Yeah, yeah, great. Well, I'm glad I got to ask you that. What's a killer move? And we could do it in the, instead of it being for romantic, like, with friendships.

Something that always works in your friendships? What do you mean?

Well, I guess for me, like, I would say A killer move for me when I'm feeling like low or lonely is I reach out to five people. Because sometimes I realize that I'm not hearing from people because I'm not reaching out.

Yeah, that's, that's absolutely one of mine. Um, because yeah, the other person might be thinking the same thing. That happens to me so often when I reach out to a couple people and I'm like, Oh yeah, I've just been kind of feeling like alone and depressed. And then the other person's like, yeah, I [01:11:00] didn't reach out to you for the same reason.

 What's one thing in your self love practice?

Um, changing the way I talk to myself, changing, you know, working with the inner critic who can be a real dick, and just kind of shifting that, being very mindful of that, of that inner voice.

And what is the best love or dating advice you've ever received?

I don't know nothing stands out to me. Honestly, there, there's nothing that what I, and I'll say that because a lot of what I have learned that has helped me has been me doing the and then finding answers from that.

 What I mean is that. Sometimes we're our greatest teachers. You know what I mean? We see ourselves so much more. so I think a lot of the stuff that I found out has just been through my own work on myself and I've been like, fuck, all right, that's, that is the truth of that. And sometimes you do get that through conversations with other people, but I guess my point is I wish someone had saved me a lot of fucking time And work on myself and had given me the magical answer, but that wasn't that was not my path

you feel the same way about friendships? Like the best friendship advice?

Yeah, [01:12:00] same same thing same thing. I wanted to cheat code so badly I wish I could say somebody told me this and it Helped everything.

Yeah. Well, Lane Moore, you're a treat. If people want more of you, I'm gonna link to your books in the show notes, but, um, so people will be able to go find them there. But if they want more of you, how do they find more of you? How do they follow you on

Yeah.

the things.

Yeah, so, um, I have a podcast called, I Thought It Was Just Me, cause that's something I feel all the time and I hear from people all the time, that is on patreon. com, uh, slash lane moore, and you can find me on every social media at hello lane moore, and lane moore. org.

I love that. yes. And you have two books.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, thank you so, thank you so much. It's so funny because I, I feel like. I have to say, when I, uh, I've done like podcasts where it's like, I'm a guest and some kind of mediocre man is the guest and he'll be like, yeah, and I also do this. Open mic every six months.

They're like so [01:13:00] specific and they'll list like 50 things they do is all I'm saying. I'm like, I have a lot of things that I do that are like, great. And I'll, I'll list like two, but like so many mediocre men will be like, yeah. And I also grocery shop on sixth Avenue. And you're like, what, why are you listing 50 things?

But it's because they take up space. So I will take up space. yes, you can come see my comedy show Tinder live every single month in New York city. I am also doing San Francisco Sketch Fest in January. Uh, all my tour dates are at lanemoore. org as well. And yes, my first book is called How to Be Alone if You Want to and Even if You Don't.

And the second book is You Will Find Your People, How to Make Meaningful Friendships as an Adult. Thank you for reminding me to take up space, say all the things. Yep,

Thank you so much.