Why People Ghost with Nancy Jo Sales

[00:13:00] Hello friends, future friends, haters, and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Uphold, And today is one of my favorite interviews I've done to date. But before we get into it, if you have not rated and reviewed the show yet, please stop what you're doing or I guess you could Drop me five stars and let me know your favorite part about the show.

I would love to hear from you. Plus, as an independent creator, it's just a really quick, nice way to show me that you care and that you appreciate what I'm doing. And for those of you who have not signed up for the mailing list, you might want to. I have two giveaways happening in November and if you go to the website, sign up for the email list, I do not spam you, but you are automatically entered to win all future giveaways.

And now, without further ado, today's guest is one of the most iconic culture writers of our time and someone that I am [00:14:00] a huge fan of. She's been harassed by the Tinder Twitter account, immortalized in viral memes, and coined one of the dating terms I personally use the most. The Dating Apocalypse. You might know her from The Bling Ring, or the hit book American Girls, social media and the secret lives of teenagers, or her HBO documentary Swiped.

She's an author, a filmmaker, and a journalist who's worked at Vanity Fair. New York Magazine, Harper's Bazaar, The Guardian, and so much more. Even if you do not know her by name, if you've read any meaningful article on dating in the 2000s, it was probably penned by this guest. Please welcome Nancy Jo Sales to Crimes of the Heart

Hello.

 This is

really jumping ahead. But like, do you think it's fair to say that the pressure you put on tech giants and some of these dating apps? resulted in look, albeit [00:15:00] shitty attempts, but like taking misogyny and some of these assault and protection seriously, because it kind of seems like nobody called out the dating industry except for you, and you kind of forced their hand in trying to do something to protect women.

Thank you for saying that. You don't know how much that means to me, to hear you say that, and how much it means to me that after many years, people are starting to realize, you know, I don't want to say I was right because I think a lot of

You can say it I'll say it

that you were right.

well, I was reporting, you know, I was listening, I was listening to users.

I was listening to women. I was asking questions of people who might have something to say about all this and where it might go, like scientists and evolutionary biologists. I mean, you can't just upend. Thousands of years of evolution in terms of dating and mating and not have it have an impact [00:16:00] on all of us, you know, and the ramifications for that in the broader world, not just in dating, seemed to me very significant, you know, so, there was such a pushback from these companies because they had had previously had the red carpet rolled out for them by the media. Sean Rad who founded Tinder was on the cover of Forbes. And I just. Reacted like, a reporter and also I think like a person just employing common sense, because the stakes are very high. People like to think of dating as this trivial thing. Like, oh, it's just dating. It's just what the kids are doing. Like, who kind of cares? No. Dating is so central to, who we are.

Intimacy, love and sex and how we relate to each other in intimate, you know, ways is, being... Really changed and degraded, I think by big tech. And so I, wanted to, in my reporting advocate for humans, , you know, for hu for Humanity,[00:17:00] , and especially when it comes to women and, and people of color and, and trans people, all of these people that I interviewed were, were telling me, this really disadvantages us. We are, I'm so depressed and unhappy with the situation and the dating companies don't listen to us.

So that's where it all sort of came from. I mean, I don't mean to sound like I'm so noble or lofty or anything like that, but I do think that corporations are not our friends a lot of the time. And that just seems to me a given. They are,

Driven by the bottom line.

Right. Of course. And that's capitalism and that's fine.

Okay. That's what they do. Let them go do it. But we're allowed to ask questions. We're allowed to, to object. We're allowed to, react and that's all I've been doing for like, you know, almost 10 years.

Oh, God. Okay, we were going to get back to this. But before I, I want to jump in on ghosting because that's the theme of October. and it's not a new concept, right? Like, [00:18:00] before apps existed, you could still get ghosted, but it does feel like a specifically modern phenomenon, and I wanted to know why you think that is.

Well, of course it's a modern phenomenon. One of the things that's happening now. Is that academics and scientists are studying this stuff, which is very recent and very new. That's one thing we really need to think about is how recent this all is, how long we've been doing things a certain way and not that it was all great.

I do not look at the past through rose colored glasses, but one of the things that people love to do who want to argue with you, they want to say, well, it's always been this way.

Well, of course, there have always been things that people did that were not cool to each other, like ghost each other, like the proverbial husband who sneaks out to buy a pack of cigarettes and never returns. But that was considered shocking. That was considered something that like, Whoa. Can you believe that happened?

Oh my God. You know, now it is because of this technology and this is not just me [00:19:00] talking. This is generally understood and you can just Google it. I mean, you know, Google is there for everybody. The academic studies that have been done on ghosting it's of course it's a new phenomenon and even the word ghosting didn't appear in the dictionary until 2017 which is, about five years after the launch of Tinder and when dating apps, you know, online dating went mobile. So humans generally think of words for things when we need them to describe something that we're experiencing. So I think it's fair to say that ghosting as a phenomenon didn't really exist in the way it does now until there was a word for it. And so it is a modern phenomenon.

That's clear. And certainly the normalization of it has is modern

it's that.

problematic because it is so hurtful. And this is one of the things that I really focus on in my work and it, which has gotten me called a Luddite and an old and all this stuff, but I don't care. I care that people are being hurt.

And [00:20:00] it is so hurtful. these studies that I'm referencing talk about the emotional toll. It's traumatizing that it can take on people, the ways that, the people who are left dangling. go through, grief and, and all kinds of upsets and it's so avoidable, it's so avoidable just to have a simple, conversation out of decency and respect.

Yeah, for sure. I think it's also worth noting for anybody listening that you've interviewed thousands of people. Like, so would you talk about Yes, there's your opinion, but your opinion is based on research, your life experience, but also that you have spent just so much time interviewing teens, adults, just kind of everybody about their dating habits.

So it's not. I just am saying that for anybody that might not be aware of your work

I did this column for the Guardian about ghosting a couple of weeks ago. This is maybe why you reached out to me. I can't remember. They assigned it because of [00:21:00] something new that was happening in the news about ghosting, which is that the dating app Bumble Said that they are going to ban ghosting. They will never have you if you do go somebody with kick off Well, if you get dating apps often make these claims about how they're protecting users But they're actually doing nothing and if you get into the weeds with this claim by Bumble, it's really that If someone goes to you on a mutually agreed upon date, it's very specific.

Then you can report that person and they will have a human review it, and then they will decide whether or not it has merit. Give me a break. These people do not, they do not, they're not going to ghosting. It's just not going to happen. I mean, maybe they'll do one or two as some sort of.

thing that they can trot out and say, look, we did it. But it's not, they're not banning ghosting. So the column was about that, but it also made me look into what is going on recently about ghosting and I saw in terms of study and research, there's a ton of studies about it

[00:22:00] and. Ghosting is hurtful. Not, not just for the person who's ghosted, but for the ghost er, especially in friendships. The person who is the ghost er in friendships, because now it's not just a dating thing. It's spilled over into friendships.

work.

Yeah. And work and work. People just don't get back to you, which is

It's so weird.

there's something called civility, which is a way more important thing than maybe in the tech, Age when everyone's become so disposable, I would argue largely because of dating absence, white culture, and large part in the anonymity that was always there in social media, civility has just fallen by the wayside, but it's like how we have a civilization, how we have a civil culture and civility just means respect, right?

And I think everybody deserves respect. That's That's what we owe each other as human beings and it's not, it's not civil, it's not respectful. I was ghosted by a friend in the last, year and it's been extremely painful. And then I was reading about ghosting of [00:23:00] friendships in these studies and it said it's just as harmful to, and sometimes more so, to the ghost er in a friendship situation, not in a dating situation.

That, for some reason, the ghost er is... Has very little, little, uh, pain or remorse about it, usually. Uh, yeah, right? But the ghoster in friendships, suffers too. You know? It's not good for us to not communicate with each other better. It's hurtful,

yeah, I fully fully agree.

I heard from like hundreds of people because everybody had a ghosting story just like you do. And some were. Worse than others, but everybody felt these terrible effects And it was interesting in the comments on the Guardian the ghosters, you know No surprise tended to be like, oh, it's not so bad and the people who had been ghosted were like I was Devastated,

Yeah, not having the closure, I think, is really hard, you know. Because then you're forced to reconcile [00:24:00] the, the narrative or the movie. I like call it the movie that plays in your head, which is like your greatest failures, right? Like most of us have beliefs about ourself that are like our own internal movie.

Whether it's, I'm too much, I'm not good enough. If only I were X, Y, and Z, then that person would love me. And that's, It's everything to do with us and not really to do with the other person. And I think when somebody ghosts you, you can't help but go back to that place. So it's like, man, maybe if I was hotter, he wouldn't have

left me or, or, you know, if it's a guy, it's like maybe if I had more money or whatever it is, like, I think that I'm not saying it's right at all, but

oh No, and I'm not that grown that grown was not That, that groan was not judging your reaction, I, it was in support of, you or someone else. Not,

Letting that monster take

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's so hard.

I've been through all of it. I'm very, very hurt by this friend of mine ghosting me. It, it kills me.

and I don't know why she did it. Yeah, no, I don't know. I don't know [00:25:00] why. She did it. I don't get an explanation. We were friends for 17 years, so the other thing that I, I've heard from a lot of ghosters is I've started questioning, is it even real?

Was it ever real? Did they really, you know, which is like messes with your sense of self and reality and, and what was really going on there. You find yourself reevaluating everything. It's, it's just so unfair. I had a, kind of brainstorm about ghosting. Recently, because of that article, ghosting is a misnomer.

It's not the right word for it. You know why? Because ghosting suggests that the person who's the ghost er became a ghost. That they just like disappeared and said, they're the ghost. Uh uh. It's not true. It's the other way around. What happens in ghosting actually? Is that that person, the ghoster, makes you a ghost.

They say you don't exist anymore [00:26:00] for me. Which is, you are no longer here. You're gone. Which is kind of like murder. It's kind of like a virtual destruction. You, you no longer exist. I am poof, getting rid of you. I am discarding you, which is a word that comes up a lot in narcissism. I mean, our culture is like,

Steeped in that. Yeah.

a lot of people being narcissistic for all different reasons.

Another podcast, but it's really a kind of, uh, assassination. I

wait, that's crazy. You need to write this article. I've never heard anybody phrase it like that. And the second you started talking, I knew exactly where you were going with it because I was like, you're absolutely right. It's not that the person leaves your life. It's that you leave theirs. They forcibly

they slam a door.

They slam a door and you are locked out. And you are,

slam a door and then they like shoot a machine gun through the door and kill you in their mind

yeah.

You're dead. They're not gonna hear [00:27:00] your text. They're not gonna read, you know, acknowledge your text. They're

Answer your call.

So what does that say about them?

So when you, you know, when you asked me, I want to answer this question, you asked me, what advice do you have? And you're right. I mean, as a journalist, I don't always feel the most comfortable telling people what to do with themselves, but as a woman in her fifties, almost sixties, you know, God helped me as a, as a mother of a, of a young adult, as a, as a person who has gone through this myself, on top of being a journalist who writes about it.

I unfortunately don't know exactly what will work for every single person, but I mean the obvious things are know that it's more about them than you and read the studies that even support that. It's more that they have a deficiency. They have something dysfunctional.

they can't deal with conversation. They're not emotionally available. They're not able to have, and I'm not condoning it or excusing it, [00:28:00] because, I would say that this person isn't acting like an asshole. I mean, they're, they're the one who is the problem, not you. Now, let's be clear because a lot of people want to argue about this. The ghosters always want to argue, well, what if this person threatens you?

What if this person harasses you? I am not talking about any of that.

that's different.

That's totally different. I've written about cyberbullying, harassment. I know how terrible it is, and doxing and stalking. You have got to leave those people and get them out of your life. We're not talking about people who actually, , pose a harm to you.

We're talking about those relationships that go on for weeks or months, sometimes even years. I've heard from people who are married for years, and they've been ghosted. You know, and they just like, suddenly... Months later here from a lawyer. I mean, it's, it's so dark and so crazy. Also I would say you do owe someone an explanation, even if it's one night

I saw the most heartbreaking thing. It was a man, a man, at a restaurant, [00:29:00] he had flowers and he said, what did I do wrong? I showed up, she didn't show up. That's a ghosting. She didn't show up. This was a woman. She didn't show up. She didn't call. She didn't text. Nothing. And then, you know, typically what happens also in these situations is they then block you or disappear from your, feed or whatever.

And you're just left there. And I felt so bad for him. So I think whether it's a night and especially if the night involves sex, come on guys. Even just a few words.

I talked to someone for that article and she mentioned, remember when Carrie Bradshaw was broken up

a post it?

with, the post it note, I'm sorry, I can't. And this woman said to me today that would have been seen as respectful because like at least he said something.

Yeah, it's really, it's really, that's, that's a dark comparison. Yes. I also want to just like add on to what you said. I think like something that is hard to also reconcile is like, you have to mourn the loss of whatever you thought that relationship was going to be. Because sometimes you're walking along [00:30:00] with whoever, thinking that you guys are on the same path and then that person ghosts you. And instead of going like, what was wrong with me? I think it's like, forcing yourself to realize they were not who I thought they were and they were not up to the level or the standard that I hold for myself. And to focus on that. That when you have a standard that you so firmly believe you deserve, it does get easier. To look at that behavior and be like, wow, it's hurtful, but it's also so unattractive. And I just, I know I, I deserve better than that.

Of course, we all deserve respect, especially in, in these dating situations. And I, I want to go back to me saying that the ghoster is an asshole. I do think they are being an asshole, but at the same time, I want us to recognize that they're also being socially conditioned by dating app companies and swipe culture because one of the reasons this is happening more and more is because of [00:31:00] the, appearance of choice, like the endless sort of stream of people that you see in swiping

The tyranny

of choice, the paradox of choice,

yes, the, the, Yes, and the endless options and, everybody becomes, it's dehumanizing and everybody becomes disposable. Everybody's an object. From my perspective, it's a lot about the male gaze and turning women into objects and just being like, well, I don't want that one anymore.

I don't want that one anymore. And what, what is really, um, messing, I think with straight male psychology is this endless, sea of choices, but also. It's the fear of getting too close of getting captured or something, and I think that that really has a lot to do with swipe culture. Why that's happening more and more. Because they don't want to give up. It's addictive. You know, the apps are designed to be addictive. And so you never really want to commit to someone. And that factors into ghosting too.

So when you say we've been conditioned, do you mean the, variable [00:32:00] ratio schedule or like the intermittent reinforcement, like how dating apps are basically designed with the same algorithm that like gambling is designed with?

Yeah, yeah, that's in my film and that's been written about a lot. It's all social media is social conditioning. It's not some conspiracy theory. It's real. They really do, , work on changing our behavior so that we spend more time on their platforms.

And that is known, People who have come out of these places and feel remorse and regret for what they've done to society, now they've got their hundred million dollars or whatever and they say, gee, that's, that was really fucked up what we did.

You know, conditioning the whole world to act a certain way. Yeah, it was,

it's conscious. I mean, you interview in your book, some of the heads of these dating apps who point blank said, this is a game. This is meant to be fun. This isn't meant to be, I think that was Sean Rad, right? The Tinder founder that, that talked about , it should be fun this isn't about [00:33:00] finding your soulmate.

This is about like

well, that's what they, that's what they said early on, but then when they did their own research and they, that was their marketing early on, this is fun, but then when they did their own research and surveys and found that they're the majority of their users,

80 percent of people want relationships.

Well, I thought it was something that was really interesting in your book, Nothing Personal. You talk about the guy who started Match. com. And when he got Match. com, he also got another website, which

sex, sex. com,

com.

a porn porn site. Yeah.

So, those were the things that were on his mind, and...

Oh, wow. You've really read my book. Thank you.

Yeah, of course I did.

You really, you really like read and understood it. Thank you so much. I'm just, no, it's something about you. I'm just used to people arguing with me as if they've never even

I've read so much of your work. I don't think you understand. Like, I've pitched television shows talking about the dating apocalypse. And don't worry, I always credit you.

 I did not come up with the phrase dating apocalypse. That was someone [00:34:00] I interviewed. for Tinder and the Dawn of the Dating Apocalypse, which was the 2015 article that got Tinder so mad and caused this huge viral craze.

It was like,

which is also truly like one of the most impactful articles in terms of, I think, just anything I've ever read on dating.

Like I said, I just listened. I just asked users, everybody, all the media was saying, this is great. This is fun. But then I was like, but that's not what I'm experiencing. I'm not experiencing a whole lot of fun. And all the people I know who are on these apps

I'm not experiencing fun.

No, they're miserable. And so I just talked to them and listen to them. But dating apocalypse, it was a quote from someone I interviewed.

In the sushi restaurant, right? Or no.

yes, yes. Thank you. Gosh, you're, you're amazing.

Oh You

What's up, everyone? I'm Delaney Fisher, comedian and serial [00:35:00] entrepreneur. And I'm Kelsey Cook, comedian and, I swear this is real, a world champion foosball player. On our podcast, Self Helpless, we dig into everything from heartbreak to career burnout to the wild stories from our 20s and the many anxieties we've experienced along the way.

We're often joined by guests who range from celebrities to renowned health experts. And together we'll unpack big topics like deciding whether or not we want kids, building your dream career, strengthening self trust, and much, much more. So join us every Monday for an unfiltered, entertaining, and honest conversation with friends where you don't even have to leave your house.

podcasts.

Uh,

but the reason why I point that out is because that was one of the main. Points of, push back [00:36:00] against me and like these kind of people who called me an old and everything dating apocalypse. It's not a dating apocalypse. People still date.

that's not even what it said.

No, I feel like we are,

fully in a post apocalyptic dating world. It is abysmal,

and, your book is full of all of these stats that are based on studies from, specific universities, or, I mean, okay, I'll throw, I'll throw a couple out. In 2019, ProPublica did a study that said a third of women have been assaulted because of a dating app.

I was assaulted on a dating update. I mean, I know so many women who, I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm just saying I'm part of the statistics and I'm so many women I've interviewed are as well. This is so widespread. You know, a third. And this is why this is so important and why it matters and why, and why I'm so dismayed that the wider media does not talk more about this. I don't understand why it makes no sense because [00:37:00] it's a crime story. This is a crime story. The story of dating apps. And, and the rise in sexual assault. Romance scams. And,

The commodification of not only people in general, but mostly women. I mean, one of the things that like, I really took away from your book was these apps have truly conditioned us because they are. literally are designed to play with the dopamine receptors in our brain. They, they throttle your matches. All of this is an illusion. It's a con. They absolutely, if you met someone on a dating app, you are the exception, not the rule. You are not meant to meet people, much less people that you are really a good match for on a dating app and that they were designed by men who really truly viewed this as a fun way to get laid quickly and to objectify women. That all of this

kind of goes back to like a hot or not game. And when you look at like top [00:38:00] down, how am I, Rory Uphold, supposed to not be influenced by the fact that the person who made the dating app that I'm on thinks of me as no more than a fuck toy.

Yeah, you just summed up like the last 10 years of my life, it's not about some kind of I hate men thing or I'm

No, if people read your book, they'll know that you actually love men.

Well, yeah, that's true. That's true. A little too

the thing, I do too. I do too.

Well, who doesn't? I mean, you know, like, I don't know. We just don't like the way that we're being treated.

And this is what I, and we want respect. But I'm thinking more and more about so much is where's this going to go?

I asked that question in 2015 with the Tinder article but here's what I, what I think is going to happen. Unfortunately, more tech

Mm hmm.

and, and unless something changes, there are people out [00:39:00] there right now who are listening to your podcast who are going to agree with us.

They're going to agree with everything that's said here. And then they're going to go right back to swiping.

Because they don't think of, there's no other option.

right. That's what the companies have done,

They've dominated. How do you meet people? You go into a bar now and people are swiping.

Right, exactly. . There's no other way. people are addicted. I do get emails sometimes from women, especially to say, after I read your book or saw your film or whatever, I stopped being on dating apps. I've never been happier. And yeah, my dating life is much less active because there's no way to meet anyone anymore. And so this is the real conundrum of it.

marriage is down. Relationships are down. There's now all these articles coming about out like I'm 40 and I've never had a relationship. Where's this going to go nowhere good. I think that these dating apps have really chipped away at the quality of life of people who date. Which

is a lot of

I'm not

on

million, ten, tens of millions of

Yeah, I got off of them. I got off of them in March. I'm not interested in being on them. And I don't [00:40:00] care. I'm sick of trying to try and out game the game. The game was not designed to, to help me. And there's like a interesting, another stat from your book in, in 2022, only 10 percent of people who are married or living together in partnered relationships met on a dating app, which means for 90 percent of people that we would deem in quote unquote successful relationships, they did not meet on dating apps.

So this is not something that actually yields results. And it's. It's not something that most of us are finding fun. So why do we do it?

Because they're designed, they're designed, to be addictive. And they've taken over the whole game.

And now we're all feeling well, now we're all feeling like, well, I don't know what I would do if I'm not on the apps. And I think like, there's no better proof than a, another article you wrote, Tinder is now going to start charging 500 a month for Tinder vault, their new kind of like high level exclusive elite version, which really is just about the [00:41:00] fact that Tinder is no longer cool.

It's being seen as so shitty that they've. and they've dropped in profits and they need to find another way to be competitive. It has nothing to do with actually helping us find better love or be more exclusive. It's just another way to monetize. And so I do think people are starting to see that this is an illusion that we've all been sold and conditioned. And there is like sort of a resistance, especially from Gen Z to be like, you know what? I'm good. I don't, I don't want to

Well, that's why they put, oh my God, that's why they put out Tinder without changing their app at all. They changed their marketing and that's why they put out this. Very euphoria looking like cool Gen Z kids in these like intimate moments like staring at each other's faces kind of like meaningfully and it was like inclusivity and they did nothing to actually change the app.

They didn't make it more inclusive. They didn't make it more intimate. They just did different marketing. And part of their mark, part of the reason why they did this was yes, because they were falling off.

Now make no mistake. They still make. [00:42:00] millions, billions of dollars. It's a multi billion dollar industry, the dating online dating industry, but it was falling off a bit. So they had this meeting and they just announced they're going to start having this high end service for people who want, you know, it was like.

Clearly in competition, like with the league or, Raya, is it Ray or Raya? I

Riot,

right. I looked at the actual meeting with the new head of Tinder.

They never said anything about how it would be different. They just said, Oh, it's going to be, we're going to enhance the experience. It's going to be more fun. No specifics. But when they asked them about why, it was very clear. They were really kind of open about it. They're like, well, you know, yeah, we're going to fix this little problem that we have with like profits falling off a little bit by getting people who can afford.

So they're looking for whales to pay for this,

it, is exploitative.

it goes towards what. Where people are the most vulnerable and that's in their need for love and kisses. Love and kisses [00:43:00] and companionship and hugs and,

Yeah, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are. So a lot of your work deals with the inherent misogyny in the technology that's been built for us. And also the discrepancy between what seems like men's desire for casual sex and women's desire for relationships.

yeah, that's a binary that I don't completely subscribe to. I don't think men just want casual sex. I think that the dating app technology, you know, sort of, uh, stalls them in that lane. where it kind of makes them think that's all that they want, but actually men in these surveys say that they want relationships too.

It just like, I think plays into their psychology what I'm trying to say is that, No, misogyny was not invented by dating apps. Of course not. But misogyny has, in my thesis, has been exacerbated. And it's kind of like obvious at this point. Misogyny has been [00:44:00] exacerbated by technology, by social media, and especially by dating apps.

Something that's really fascinating that I had not realized that you wrote about is that, at various points in. American history when women had made advances in terms of feminism or just socioeconomically, politically, like in the workforce, it was always met with some sort of opposition.

And it's interesting that like when women started dating in the early 1900s. they were literally locked up for being sluts and for potentially carrying STDs, which like I had never heard of the quote unquote

Yes. It was called the American plan, right? Is that

crazy? How is, how are we? Oh my God. Thank you for mentioning the American plan. No one knows what it was. And yet, it was a decades long, program.

involving... Um, government program involving hundreds of, there's one book about it, a really good book about it.

And other than that, there's nothing, there's like [00:45:00] a couple of articles online, a few articles online and one really great book. But is it taught in schools? No. And what it was was the US government decided like, it wasn't even the States.

It was federal. No. It was this dispensation for, cops. workers to just basically arrest women who seemed slutty

It's

them. Or I know, and it really of course affected disproportionately women of color. It was also racist, but it was white women too. It was just like anybody who was like indigent, you know, maybe it was wearing the wrong thing.

 They put them in reformatories where they had to like learn not to be a loose woman. They put them in reformatories. They sexually assaulted them. They sometimes gave them hysterectomies. I mean, this is nuts and it's crazy and nobody knows about it.

And yes, it was all related to. the fact that women were moving to the cities. They were getting jobs. They were no longer under the watchful eye of their families [00:46:00] or, ministers or whoever in the community and they were living in apartments. And dating was kind of invented by women.

And it started out, and this was in the 19 teens, 1920s, women would say, you know, make a date to come meet me at a certain place. That's why it was called dating.

I didn't even realize

then the American plan was in reaction. To this.

And it does kind of seem like if we zoom out where we're at now, it's like a power struggle between men and women is what it feels like to me.

  There has been what Susan Faludi, in her book, Backlash, identified as backlash.

Backlash happens repeatedly along these waves of feminism. And I've said, back even in 2015 with that Tinder article, I sort of mused about this, but now it's becoming more and more apparent. I think it's true, what you're, what you're saying. I think... one, one way in which we see backlash to women making more money, still not the same to women being in universities more to be, to having more access to [00:47:00] power is men, punishing us in the realm of love, sex, and dating and this is not all men.

Hashtag not all men. But a lot of men, I think, feel very threatened by this. And I think that they are reacting a lot of, they feel, yeah, all these things. And they react by trying to make us feel less pretty. Trying to make us feel less valuable.

the Andrew Tate's of the world, yeah.

right. And I do think that the realm of love, sex, and dating has become a realm in which backlash is being expressed a lot.

So if you were 25, right now, do you think you'd be on dating apps?

am I 25 with what I know now, or am I 25 with when I was 25?

you're 25 with what you know now,

No, I would not. And I, no. What I see so much though is, is at a very early age now, 25 and even younger, I'm seeing a lot of young women who are so beaten up by all this. Like very, very, [00:48:00]very young. It really, it really worries me, troubles me, and keeps me up at night.

When I was on this app called Unhinged, I had broken up with my boyfriend and I had taken the time to heal and then I got back on and I went on a date with this guy who... It was during COVID, not 2020, 2021. So I felt comfortable going to his place because we, I knew we had mutual friends, like real mutual friends.

So I was like, okay, he's not going to murder me. Had one of the greatest first dates of my life, of my life. Dated this guy for A little over a month, and the longer we dated, the less sex we had, and then one day he was like, I have intimacy issues, and it was like, related to his dick, which I'm like, okay, he's not lying about that, because that's embarrassing, so then that ended and I entered my summer of daddies and the next guy I dated, ghosted me after a month went on a vacation.

I never heard from him again. The next guy after that was also a dad. He told me that his therapist said that we couldn't date. Then the next guy after that, Was so traumatized by his [00:49:00] divorce that he was only interested in polyamorous relationships and a month and a half into us dating his ex girlfriend found out we were dating and literally tried to kill herself and ended up in the hospital.

And then the next guy after that is the guy that used his son as a foil to cheat on me the entire time and that's when I got apps, but like, that was the caliber of either men that I was choosing, you know, like you got to look at my patterns or whatever.

I'm sure I had a hand in it. But also these were all men who told me that they were available, that they wanted a relationship, that these were the things that they were interested in, and it all started off quote unquote normal, right? I didn't find out all of these things until I had already invested. At least a month's worth of time with this person. And, all of these people I had mutual friends with. Maybe not close friends, but at least one.

first of all, it all sounds so traumatizing and so difficult, and yet, I'm so, [00:50:00] Happy to hear you say all this. You know why? Because to have a young woman like you with a podcast speaking truth and being real , and not seeing that thing that was happening even just a few years ago the cool girl who would say, Oh, it's fine. You know, uh, I'm a guy's girl, you know, they can do whatever. And I'm just fine with it. Cause I'm strong.

Which is what patriarchy wants you to do, which is what tech culture wants, wants you to do. And it's oppressive. And so I think even though what you went through is awful, what you're doing right now, talking about it, speaking out about it and saying, that's not okay.

Is so important because we can't make everybody go off Tinder, but we can support each other in our traumatic, experiences on dating apps and know that we're not alone.

And it's, and I don't blame people. I blame, I blame these companies

I

think that

we absolutely need to be holding them

accountable,

Yes, we do. They're robbing us of the chance to have those moments or [00:51:00] relationships. They're reduced. Yeah. Meaningful connections that make you feel like, you're experiencing some kind of magic.

As opposed to human delivery apps. so if somebody's listening, they're probably like, yo, this is pretty bleak.

I think it is bleak, and I think that's why a lot of people don't like me and, it's like I'm on the deck of the Titanic and I see the iceberg, I don't know what to do exactly, except talk about it.

That's the only thing I know to do. Is talk about it,

write about it, share information, raise awareness, get people thinking, people always say, what are we doing about it?

I don't know. I really honestly don't know.

I think you should, if somebody's listening and they're like, okay, I want to make a change. I would commit to a couple months off dating apps. And in doing so, I would also take that free time, and I would, one, get right with yourself. Like, I think it's a two fold. I think there needs to, people need to fortify themselves so that the [00:52:00] ghosting, the rejections, whatever are are seen as like, thank you, thank you for showing me who you are so that I can move on. Even if it hurts for a day or two, like I now am grateful when that happens. Earlier on, I'm like, great, this was information. I let people show me who they are, as opposed to like, over investing in the story in what I think it could be. But also, I try to put myself in situations where I'm meeting people in real life.

And what that looks like is meeting more people in general. Not just men. Men, women, non binary, gay, straight, bisexual, poly. whatever, because you never know when that person's going to set you up with someone or invite you to a party or whatever. And in the meantime, what it's done is it's made me feel more connected to my community, to my other relationships, which has just made me feel less alone. And it's enriched my life. In a holistic sense, and I think, like, it's very hard to change the [00:53:00] world, but you can definitely change your community. You can definitely change the bubble around you. Your influence does extend to a certain, area around you. And I think if we're all doing this and we all start to, or just some of us start to do this, we can make a tiny shift, you know, like I do see. More and more women on Tik Tok and men getting off dating apps, okay, well, they're going to be joining the walk club or the rock climbing gym or going to some cooking class or a happy hour or whatever, and then forcing yourself to make conversation, not just with the person that you want to be dating, but, that lady that's standing behind you with a cute dog at line at Starbucks or wherever. Oh my gosh, your dog is so cute. Tell me about the dog. You have a little chat and maybe that's it. Maybe it's just the practice, the habit of like building connections with people you see. And then you never know. Then a, it's not as scary when you see some guy or girl that you're super attracted to because you're in the habit of just talking to [00:54:00] everyone.

I love everything you're saying because this is resistance in this. Current climate in which we find ourselves, what you're talking about, which once upon a time would have been

living life, being a human, is resistance. Because it's resisting tech companies, it's resisting their social conditioning, it's insisting on the human, it's insisting on connections, and that is resistance.

And you said something really important, which we haven't even mentioned, how these apps and this technology are making people So, not just not know how to have relationships with each other, but not even know how to talk to

each other. I talked to a lot of young people who are just too afraid to even speak to another person and not just in the dating app realm And what does that tell you about what is happening now?

It's

not good. There's a study that I was talking to somebody who referenced this study, so I don't have the information, but she was basically saying that people have been [00:55:00] studying the effects of screens of all kinds on human behavior. And there's a correlation between how much screen time a person consumes and their inability to judge In person, , reactions that it has almost a autistic effect on people's perception of human behavior and not being able to read body language or pick up on social cues. And I found that fascinating because. That is obviously going to make it way harder to talk to strangers or go out of your comfort zone. And what is the pursuit

of love if not getting outside of your comfort zone?

And now when you have like a whole generation of boys, young men who have grown up and are growing up without even having to talk to a woman, a real woman, Also the elephant in the room that nobody ever wants to talk about, which is porn. I mean, it's a

huge part of this. It's just a huge part of this. And when I first started talking about it and people [00:56:00] before me talked about it too, but when I started talking about it in relation to the double whammy of porn and dating apps and how those things kind of work together and porn and social

Well, the commodification of sex, the

right.

objectification of

women or sexual acts, it's like it's very easy to become distanced and desensitized, but also, eating ass was not a thing that my parents did.

neither was choking. Believe

me,

nobody choked you.

And by the way, I do both. I'm cool

with it.

But...

I'm not shaming or judging again. It's just, you have to see how this stuff does change us. Nobody choked anybody when I was 25 and then you have to ask why, why do people want to choke each other? Well, I mean, people have written about it and it does seem pretty clear that it has something to do with porn and how it became a category and porn. What I noticed after porn, cause like I said, I'm almost 60 so I was fucking guys, like way before they all had access to online [00:57:00] porn.

What I noticed before and after it started to get less fun, less spontaneous, more like somebody was checking off boxes. It's sort of feel like, first I do this, and then I do that, then I do this, and then I do that, and then I do this. And also it felt more like that boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Like kind of pounding thing that they talk about in porn. And it was, and I found myself going like, what the hell just happened?

 It started to feel more in impersonal and violent and I don't just mean violence like choking. and pounding. I mean, violent, like not, uh, as intimate. Yeah. Not as present, not as intimate. Like they're watching a porn movie in their head.

Actually, I have this great friend, April Allison. She's a, professor of conflict at Princeton and she writes about porn and she's in my film swipe. She sees porn as a kind of censorship if you can wrap your mind around her thought and I love this because It's like if you watch a lot of porn Then it's censoring your thoughts [00:58:00] It's kind of like censoring your imagination.

It's censoring your desire, your creativity when it comes to

It's

kind of like how when I'm writing a new show or a movie, I don't watch other people's movies or shows. Like, I don't consume art when I'm putting things out because I don't wanna be influenced.

because you want all that influence that was already in there to work its way into yourself in a way that you can't even

I'm, I love that. I'm obsessed with that. I, I actually,

I watch

porn very sparingly.

Well, people who watch porn, guys I've interviewed, because I went and asked them, you know, based on this revelation from April, I said, do you think about porn when you're having sex? So many, at least half, maybe more, said yes. And they tend to watch specific movies in their head while they're having sex with you.

Which sucks because that can't be that fun.

They can't help it because

No, I, sure, sure.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a porn rant,

[00:59:00] All of the things we're talking about do not have simple answers. They're complex problems that are intertwined with so many things. You know?

Well, okay. So there you go. Okay. What dating apps? Tell, tell me your question.

Have dating apps gotten worse or have our standards just gotten a little bit higher? Because the one resounding thing, the feedback that I got is like dating apps are worse now than they've ever been.

In terms of what, what did you hear?

In terms of the ghosting, the people not messaging back, the, um, I never get any matches, oh, we go on a date, he or she doesn't show up, or we date for a few weeks and then they totally ghost, or they have a secret family, or this guy just drops the fact that he's married, like, the chaos

seems to

family. Oh my God.

no, That is something that I have heard women say like, Oh, he just casually dropped that he was married on our third date.

[01:00:00] Oh, so I've seen so many guys. I know, I know her married Tinder got so mad at me in the original article for talking about cheating, but we know that like, I don't know the exact figure.

There are some studies that people are in relationships

61 percent of people on Tinder are married. That's

a stat that

it.

this year.

Okay. So this is my thing. People are like, Oh, but so and so got married on Tinder. You're still addicted to it. You're still in the marriage. When you start having problems, you're not having sex, you have a baby or something happens, you have a fight. They're still going to go right back on Tinder because they're already, they're already addicted and programmed exactly.

It's causing disruption not just in dating, but in relationships as well. It's still a factor

so it sounds to me like the answer is like, it's not necessarily that our standards have raised or that the apps have gotten worse. It's more that like people have been conditioned and so we're just not treating each other as well as we used to and it's become more normalized. So it's like we're

just excusing a lot of things and it's [01:01:00] easier.

The apps are working exactly as they were designed to work.

Well, they've barely changed. They've barely changed at all. You know, they just put a little feature here, a little feature there to get you to spend more money.

 Well, this has been one of my favorite most illuminating conversations. I ask all of my guests this and I can't wait to see what you say. What is the greatest love or dating advice you've ever received?

I don't know why this popped into my mind. it was really about sex, but it goes for dating too. I was maybe 12 years old and it's from my mother. I said to her, we were in the kitchen. I'll never forget. I said, How do you have sex? And I didn't mean like stick it in or whatever.

I knew about that, but like, how do you do it right?

Mm

And, you know, she wasn't shocked by this question at all. And I think it's a, it's a really kind of a conversation that girls need to have more with their mothers and boys too, about what is the real pleasure of it. Peggy Ornstein talks about that in her book, Girls and Sex, about pleasure.

We don't talk about like pleasure. I think that's what I was getting at. How do you [01:02:00] have sex? And my mother said to me, if it feels good, do it. If it doesn't, don't. That's it. Cause she was talking just not just about your body. She was talking about your soul.

 she was talking about, and I didn't always follow that advice, and any time I didn't follow that advice, I stumbled and got myself in trouble.

Because that really is it. If it feels good, do it. If it doesn't, don't. Some people like having anal sex. If you like having anal sex, have anal sex. But if you don't want to do that, you don't have to just because some guy wants you to, is what I'm saying. Or if, If you like being on dating apps, if it makes you feel good to be on dating apps and you're really swept up in all the excitement of it, then okay, be on dating apps.

But if you feel bad about it, if it's not making you feel good, if it's actually chipping away at your sense of well being and self esteem and making you upset, then don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do that to yourself. And it goes for relationships too. If somebody's making you feel good, stay with them. [01:03:00] If they're making you feel bad, get out.

Maybe not ghost them.

don't ghost.

But you know what I wanted to say before we get off? I love this conversation too. I think you're amazing. Like I'm. I'm obsessed with you now. I'm just amazed that you had me on your podcast and you wanted to talk to me about this for so long and that you're so prepared.

You are more prepared to interview me than anybody who's ever talked to me. Ever.

I don't, I know what you're doing with the podcast, but I don't know what your future goals are, but whatever you're doing, I'm glad you're doing it.

thank you. And, I thank you for doing this show. I'm, I've said it, I'm, I'm a huge fan. And I feel so grateful that I got to spend this time with you. I truly mean it. And when I come to New York, I'm going to be like, let's get a drink. I

Oh, we're going out. We're going out

can't fucking wait.