Polyamory 101 with Broadway's Paloma Garcia-Lee

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:00] Hello, friends, future friends, haters and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Uphold, and if you're new here, this is a podcast where I take. The wildest dating stories that I've ever heard, and I turn them into true crime like inspired reenactments.

[00:00:21] But it's also a podcast where I interview experts like sex therapists or relationship coaches, as well as people with interesting stories or perspectives on love. Next week we'll be diving into a hilarious and cringey crime with one of talk's top influencers, but. Today we are going to step into a conversation with someone who has lived almost the entirety of her life on what most people would consider the romantic fringes.

[00:00:54] Before I introduce today's special guest, I wanna pose a question to everyone listening. [00:01:00] What does a successful romantic relationship look like to you? And why do you think you feel that way? For a lot of us, I think a quote unquote successful relationship is marrying the love of your life, never divorcing and remaining faithful to one another no matter what.

[00:01:17] I mean, I'll admit that's what I was raised with, and I can't help but feel like that is the bar that I'm trying to reach. And yet I look back at some of my past relationships and how I've managed to maintain friendships with those exes, and I consider those to be some of my greatest relationships and some of my greatest achievements as like a human on earth.

[00:01:37] No, we didn't get married and no, we're still not together. But in my heart of hearts, I do not feel like those are failures. I, I really, really don't. I learned a lot from them, and we were, and still are kind to one another, and I don't know, man, that just feels like a win, right? So then why is it that we've been programmed to view relationships in such black and [00:02:00] white terms?

[00:02:01] Today's conversation really has me thinking about the ways in which we've been programmed to think about relationships. You know, monogamy has always been the default gold standard. But why? And if non-monogamy makes you uncomfortable, I would challenge you to ask yourself why. Where is that coming from?

[00:02:18] Like, what is the source of that discomfort? Is it judgment, jealousy, fear, insecurity? To me, those are fascinating questions. They're little threads that we can pull to get a deeper understanding of why we are the way that we are as people. And you know, my thread is gonna look very different than what your thread is, but some of the things I'm thinking about as we head into this conversation are why do we as a society seem to value.

[00:02:46] Married couples over unwed couples, even when the latter have been together longer. And what kind of security is exclusivity actually offering us when the statistics on cheating and divorce have [00:03:00] literally never been higher? And why is it that we seem to think of sex as the barometer for fidelity when there are so many ways in which people can be unfaithful to each other with their clothes on?

[00:03:13] I have no agenda here. I don't care if you're monogamous or non-monogamous. I want everyone to find their own version of happiness. But I also believe that our beliefs are often fortified in the moments in which we question them. So I ask you to your listeners to think about your views on love and how or why you've arrived at those expectations.

[00:03:36] And if you've rated the show five stars and dropped me a review, thank you. I share a lot of my reviews, and I recently got one from someone named Mood Fixer who said this. I am also a podcaster. My podcast is about breakups and making better choices in relationships. I love this podcast. She has great guests.

[00:03:55] She is creative and funny. Oh my God. Tell everyone she helped me get through my [00:04:00] last breakup and inspired me to do my podcast. Great work, Rory. Woo. So I'm not sure who you are, but I need you to know that you made my week and I'm so happy to hear that you've healed and that you've also decided to channel all that heartbreak into creating a podcast.

[00:04:14] Love, love, love, love, love. I'm just sorry that I don't know what it's called so that I can't give it a listen. And for everybody else that is still holding out on giving me five stars or dropping a review, what are you waiting for? It literally takes like, Less than a minute. I don't think you can do anything in less than a minute.

[00:04:34] All right, I digress. Without further ado, today's special guest is a triple threat. She's a singer, a dancer, and an actress that made her Broadway debut at 17 years old. She's a six time Broadway actress. Who made her Oscar debut in Steven Spielberg's West Side Story as Graziella and her TV debut in FXs, critically acclaimed Fosse.

[00:04:59] [00:05:00] She is also a Taurus and only child, and ethically non-monogamous. I'm talking about none other than Miss Paloma Garcia Lee, welcome to Crimes of the Heart. Yay. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad you're here. I guess right out the gate, how do you identify as a human on this planet, as a human, as a dating single person on the planet?

[00:05:24] Yes. 

[00:05:25] Um, I identify as human, surprisingly. Yeah. Uh, a human woman. I am single. I am polyamorous. My pronouns are she her, and that's kind of the current identification sticker I have with myself. Cool. Cool. Former alien, 

[00:05:39] former alien, former, married, 

[00:05:40] former polyamorous. Married with a husband and a boyfriend, but now a single human.

[00:05:45] Do you 

[00:05:45] identify 

[00:05:46] as bisexual or? I do. Okay. Uh, though I've been like sort of unpacking that term for myself, realizing that when I discovered that I was bisexual, I actually first thought that I was lesbian when I was like 12 or 13. I thought I only liked women at that point [00:06:00] and kind of thought that that was going to be it for me.

[00:06:02] I told all my friends that, I was very like secure in that at that young age. And then I started liking boys too. But at the time, you know, pansexual wasn't really a phrase. Sure. That was being used then. No. And then also I just heard what is like mental attraction sapiosexual. Mm-hmm. So I find myself, I'm like a pan sapio bisexual if I guess I can combine all of those things.

[00:06:21] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And poly and polly. So, A Multihyphenate multi. I'm a multihyphenate out here 

[00:06:27] in these streets. Totally. So before we jump into all of this, what do you define as a relationship? Like what's a relationship to you? 

[00:06:36] Mm. I've actually been talking about that and writing on that. I've been talking about ships a lot.

[00:06:41] Mm-hmm. And like how relationships and just like the ship of it all. Yeah. Can vary in so many different ways. For sure. So, I just kind of find it, the, what did I write? I was like the vibe between any number of humans. And my friend was like, that's too vague for love. And I was like, well narrowed down. Yeah.

[00:06:56] I was like, well, it's like kind of what it is, you know? Obviously romantic [00:07:00] entanglements. Are we talking romantic relationship? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I would say any commitment between any number of people and any of those, number of people decide what that looks like romantically. Okay. 

[00:07:10] So vague for you. No, no, no.

[00:07:12] That that does put, that starts to put a little box around things. So. The thing that defines say like you and me right now mm-hmm. From not being in a relationship, is that we haven't, we don't have a commitment to one another in that it's not necessarily defined by sex or by exclusivity or by any of those things.

[00:07:33] It's more about the specific commitment you're making to that specific person. I think 

[00:07:37] so. Okay. And I think that's so specific. Cause I think a lot of people, and there, there's no right or wrong in this. But the fact of adding sex into something mm-hmm. Then makes it a romantic relationship. I think that's the default.

[00:07:49] Yeah, totally. And I, I don't think I subscribe to that. I've been long-term relationships that are sex lists for one reason or another for a period of time, but that doesn't make the relationship any less romantic. Hmm. [00:08:00] And I've had plenty of friends who I've slept with who done I don't currently, or vice versa.

[00:08:04] But then that doesn't make it a relationship in like romantic terms. So it's kind of like, either way, sex has never been the defining factor for me though. I will say, with my thinking on it, I do like to find like verbal commitment and verbal agreements with romantic partners. Yeah. Versus like the situation ship.

[00:08:20] Oh, of course. You know, that is like raining Supreme right now, where it's like, let's not talk about anything. And one of the parties is assuming everyone's dating and the other is like absolutely not a single. 

[00:08:28] We're exclusive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. So you told me once upon a time that you've never identified with being monogamous, I.

[00:08:36] Yeah, and I, I would love to talk about that because I don't know if it's how I'm wired, how I was brainwashed, or who I really am. Sure. But I think I've only ever identified with being monogamous, and then I've experimented and it has gone badly. It sometimes do. I mean that, I think I'm, I think I'm the closest I've ever been to non-monogamy now, but I think that's just because I'm the least available I've ever 

[00:08:59] been.

[00:08:59] [00:09:00] I see. Okay. If that makes sense. It's so interesting cause I do, I find monogamy has been kind of now presented as the societal default. A hundred, a hundred. And it just never had to be, even if you look back like way back in history, it wasn't always, and like we see even like biblical examples of men having multiple wives and we kind of just like and glaze over them and men.

[00:09:22] Yes, totally. Exactly. And the church like really loves to glaze over that. And I always thought that was so interesting of being like, wait a minute. Hmm. Okay. But as far back as I can remember with myself again, I think first off, not necessarily understanding who I was the most attracted to when I was younger.

[00:09:38] Sure. But then also I grew up in this progressive family. Both my parents are artists. And no one was really pressing me to answer those questions. Mm. So my parents are in a long-term monogamous marriage. They both identify as straight, it's a very, um, you know, they were heteronormative. Very normal. 

[00:09:52] Both successful relationship.

[00:09:54] Yeah. Yeah. And so it wasn't, but then also growing up with their artist friends. My first babysitters were two gay men. [00:10:00] And so like, I just always had these other examples of things being very, very normal from a young age. And I'm so grateful for my parents exposing me to that because it just allowed me this.

[00:10:09] Mass freedom. Yeah. Of like, I liked girls, I liked boys, you know, and I wasn't, you know, though my parents were very supportive of me. It wasn't always that I was that open with discussing this with them. Sure. But they, they certainly allowed me the freedom too. And I went to boarding school, so I was homeschooled also.

[00:10:23] So like, it, it just keeps going. Like, let's keep going on there. So I was also homeschooled and I'm an only child. Yeah. So there was this bubble that really allowed me, this sense of creating my own version of things in a specific way. Which, 

[00:10:36] I'm sorry. Yeah. You were also shielded from a certain amount of judgment.

[00:10:38] Yes. That I think a lot of us who went to public school or private school or whatever, went to school with other children. Yes. Did not 

[00:10:46] get, totally. Yeah. And I think there are pros and cons whenever people ask me about it. I'm like, the pza, it really allowed me this like awesome space to be who I was without judgment.

[00:10:56] Mm-hmm. My parents were so supportive. Well, deferred judgment. Yes. Deferred, [00:11:00] deeply deferred judgment. Because I 

[00:11:01] bet that transition was really 

[00:11:03] hard. Oh my gosh. For so many reasons. Yeah. And yeah, but I also wasn't exposed to a lot of other ways of thought. Mm-hmm. And so when I went to boarding school, so a homeschooled only child who then goes to boarding school at 14 years old, my roommate had to teach me that.

[00:11:15] Like other people had opinions and those were like valid. Other people had thoughts too, and like had ways of doing things. No, no. Yeah. And I was like, that's crazy cuz that's not what I think. And that's wild. So it must be wrong. But I, she was so generous with me. She's like a sister and, um, she really taught me how to share and how to open my mind.

[00:11:31] She was so, uh, generous. She had a sister. Yeah. And a brother, so she was very, very good at that. But anyway, it's just so funny to think back. And my first proper boyfriend when I was at school, at boarding school, we were monogamous. Oh. Which is wild and crazy. Wild and crazy. 15. That's the last time I was monogamous as I was 15 years old, and I don't know 

[00:11:49] what's crazier that you, your first relationship was monogamous or that that was also the last time you were monogamous 

[00:11:54] Total and it had the best experience.

[00:11:56] Best first boyfriend. What? Um, we actually have been like recently [00:12:00] kind of back in touch with each other and I remember texting him a few years ago being like, thank you for being the best first boyfriend. Oh, ever. He was a little bit older than me, but just held my hand so beautifully through so many firsts.

[00:12:11] Mm. And he was just so great and I don't know if everyone always has that experience top to bottom. He was fantastic, but I don't really remember at the time. I think I was just so enamored with him that it was less of a like monogamy by structure and it was monogamy by like, I'm so madly in love. Yeah.

[00:12:27] With this boy and going through all those firsts with him and virginity loss and all of those things. Yeah. I was just, Ugh, I don't need anyone but him. And that was that. But I didn't think anything of it. But I guess that's really the, and then when my husband and I started dating years later, we decided to be monogamous by choice.

[00:12:43] For the first few years we were together always with the intention to open up. Mm. Um, and explore an open relationship. But, wow. 

[00:12:49] Okay. So then you dated men, you dated women, and eventually you met your husband. But by that time you knew that you were not going to, like, even though you were [00:13:00] willing to get married, you were not willing to be monogamous.

[00:13:02] You had already come to that conclusion in your life. 

[00:13:04] I had, and I think that conclusion came from a few different sources. I always, uh, ask myself, do I think that polyamory is an orientation? Is it a choice? Are you born this way? Are you, is this nature versus nurture? What is it? Yeah. And I, I don't have the answer for that with myself though.

[00:13:19] I know I've always been inclined towards non-monogamy. I've always been attracted, and I think it's very human to be attracted to more people. Sure. Um, at a time, not just one. But then I always like the second. Quick follow up question for me ever since I was little was like, why can't I then be with multiple people at the same time?

[00:13:35] And as long as everyone knows what is the problem, and I didn't have, I didn't have a young polyamorous example or anyone who kind of showed me that, that question was just always the quick follow up. Interesting in it. And I always had a fascination with relationships and the how and the why on that.

[00:13:51] But you know, I met my husband, so my first boyfriend is when I was 15. Yeah. And then I ended up meeting. And starting to date my, who then became my husband at [00:14:00] 19. All of this happened very young for me. Mm-hmm. I didn't have that, like I'm dating throughout my twenties. I met him at 19, I got married at 22 and spent all of my twenties with him.

[00:14:08] So I, oh, not just him. Not just, well, truly and not just him. Yeah. But like, so in that period, probably between 15 and 19, lots of experimenting, lots of exploring, none of which was exclusive. I also had insight into, I really started noticing, of course, when you're like a late teen, How much infidelity is in relationships.

[00:14:27] Sure. And that really blew my mind. So I was like, actually, lots of people are in a non-monogamous relationship. They just don't know it. Yes. Or they do know it, but their partner doesn't know it. So lots of you know, and there were a few very formative marriages that I saw where the husband had a mistress.

[00:14:44] Mm. And obviously she knew he had a wife, but the wife didn't know this was happening. The wife didn't know he had a mistress. And that. I'll probably write a book on all of that one day, just like really getting an insight into a few situations like that of like, so she, she is [00:15:00] willingly in a non-monogamous relationship mm-hmm.

[00:15:02] That he has structured. And really the only person who's not is the, there's a spouse who doesn't know. Yeah. And I was like, wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. How interesting. Now would the wife be willing, you know, and of course like so many people are like, they would never go for it, or it's better, you know, don't ask, don't tell.

[00:15:17] I think there's a lot of Don't ask, don't tell. Especially in our industry. Oh 

[00:15:20] my gosh, there's a lot. 

[00:15:21] Totally. How did you not get your feelings hurt? I think there's two major things to come up with being Polly, and one is jealousy. Totally. And the other is feelings hurt. So like in the example that you just laid out, I have often been the wife.

[00:15:37] I mean, I haven't been married. Mm-hmm. I've been cheated on multiple times. Right. And it's so hurtful. Oof. You know, it's hurtful because like I signed up for one thing and then was lied to repeatedly, and I think when I pull things back, sex is an act. It can be very intimate, but it is not what a relationship is.

[00:15:57] It's a part of the relationship. I totally think what hurts the [00:16:00] most is a person actively lying. Actively concealing parts of their life. That's what hurts the most to me. Of course. Yeah, 

[00:16:08] of course it does, and especially in those circumstances, like people create and we see it. People have experienced it.

[00:16:13] Whole other lives. Whole other universes. Yeah. And like one of the marriages that I was able to really witness from close circumference was truly like he had a whole nother life with someone else that his wife did not know about. And what a wild thing to witness. And I'm actually saying all of these things right now, just to preface, no judgment, just the human study of it is so fascinating to me that we are capable of that, that people are capable of that.

[00:16:39] And then going and looking in their beloveds eyes that they've made these commitments to mm-hmm. Monogamous commitments, which they didn't have to, because obvious nobody forced them to do that. Yeah. And obviously there is another option if they have other needs or desires, but they've made a commitment monogamously.

[00:16:54] Mm-hmm. And then are able to look in someone's eyes and lie, and then look in this other person's eyes and create a whole nother universe for [00:17:00] them. Like the pain is just, and the lying betrayal is so horrendous. It's awful. It's awful. It's awful. 

[00:17:05] I'll, I got a PhD in it. He said, I am a pro crazy, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[00:17:13] By that logic, I am a full-blown nuttzo. I've been cheated on so many times. Oh my God. At what point am I gonna wake the fuck up and go, something's not working. 

[00:17:22] I will say that I am the most jealous person on earth, and I've had my feelings hurt so much, so I am not, this is why I debate with myself that I actually think that I was like born Polly, because I think that if I could choose.

[00:17:34] Which I also believe that I could choose. I feel like I would be sacrificing something within myself, but I could still choose it. I do think there is a simplicity to monogamy that serves in a very specific way, and being poly opens up the biggest can of worms that like seems to then only those worms then our poly and multiply and like the worm can just keeps going for forever.

[00:17:55] So it really forces you, it forced me, I'll speak for myself. It forces me on the daily to [00:18:00] look at my jealousy, to look at my attachment habits. To look at why I think I can control or own anyone. Mm-hmm. And it makes me confront those consistently, which is exhausting. So like why am I choosing that? But I also think that it's making me my higher self loves that quest of really trying to detach in those ways.

[00:18:17] I'm literally like a homeschooled only child Taurus. I'm like, what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine. Well, 

[00:18:21] that does, okay. Yeah. So then can you gimme a situation in which you feel the safest romantically? Mm. What's your romantic safe 

[00:18:29] place? Probably the one that I was in that I'm not sure I could recreate if I tried.

[00:18:33] Mm-hmm. So I was married to my husband and I had a long-term boyfriend and we were in a closed V for a very long time, and for those who don't know, so we weren't a throuple, the boys weren't involved with each other. They were both solely with me. And the three of us kind of created a little family. And something about that unit, something about having two partners and a lot of people like chuckle at me being like, no shit.

[00:18:54] Having two partners would be so great. But something about that for me, so like, oh no, it seems like a lot of fucking work. It was so much [00:19:00] work. It was so much scheduling. Lot. Yes. Yes. And work. And work in many ways. And like the Google Docs and the shared calendars and the scheduling, but my, probably my safest place.

[00:19:11] Has been with those two partners and I'm discovering for myself now not being in that structure anymore and kind of facing singleness for the first time since what I was 19, or Yeah, 19, if not before. Cause I was always kind of with. Multiple people at the same time. And right now I don't have anyone who identify as a partner of mine.

[00:19:29] And that is wild. That is wild. Yeah. Um, and a lot of growth is coming from it too, of course. But, so I guess I'm discovering now what that safe place will look like. Okay. 

[00:19:38] Interesting. Like for, for example, for me, I think my safe place is finding one person and growing with that one person that said, I mean, I don't know.

[00:19:48] I, we've talked about this. I, I, I attempted an open relationship and I think I did it in quotes wrong. I mean, like, I think the, the reality is a relationship is whatever you make it totally [00:20:00] always, you know, my marriage is my marriage, my, my relationship is my relationship. Yours is yours, et cetera. But I was in a, this is before Polly was like, so mainstream, an open relationship where when we were together, we were together.

[00:20:14] And when we weren't, we weren't. I see. Okay. And that was about as much definition as we had. So it's not surprising that I found myself really jealous. Totally. And I think that it bred a sense of competition, huh? With other women that was unhealthy. Sure. 

[00:20:32] Did you guys have rules in any way, shape, or form, or was it truly as vague as that?

[00:20:37] It was 

[00:20:38] also like we didn't use protection. Mm-hmm. But he was supposed to, when I was supposed to with other people. Like that was like, I guess the only other 

[00:20:45] rule understood. Interesting by choice were, were there any moments 

[00:20:50] that it was a long distance situation? So I think it was partially 

[00:20:53] that. Did you have to tell each other or could you do what you No, we didn't have 

[00:20:58] to tell each other.

[00:20:59] Interesting. 

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] Oh my God. My brain would go crazy. Yeah. I would lose my mind. That was not great for me. Totally. Because like, well also like what's worse people say, because then people are like, I don't wanna know. But then your brain is gonna make up probably worse stories. Oh, always. Always. Than what could ever be.

[00:21:14] Although 

[00:21:14] I'm a writer, I mean, oh shit, I'm 

[00:21:16] gonna come, you're with like, and this is what's happening. I know. This is what's going on. Yeah. That's taxing. It was 

[00:21:21] taxing, but then I also felt myself clinging to this idea of I'm the primary or I'm the first, like he loves me the most or I'm the most important, which I don't know if that's common, if that's healthy, if that's normal.

[00:21:36] I know that the language is primary, secondary, right? 

[00:21:39] It can be. It can be. And then there's the non-hierarchical relationships as well. Oh, okay. I like you clinging to, and I'm trying to learn to not, but definitely like of course in my situation that I had, I was his wife. Mm-hmm. And wife offered such.

[00:21:54] Security to me and a big added security of him being able to then go play with others once he started [00:22:00] doing that. Mm-hmm. Because I'm his wife. And that didn't bother you? Well, it did. It did. But again, the, like the did of it, the bothering of it is something that I really feel by choice. I was like, this is good for me.

[00:22:12] Like I need to learn how to work through this. I need to trust. And especially like I was in a situation, I was very, very lucky both the men that I was with. Just like outstanding. Honest, honest, radically honest men. Sure. That I knew everything. And so it was a huge act of trust for me of being like, I know I'm not being lied to.

[00:22:28] I'm actually being told the The most truth. The most truth. The most truth. Yeah. And you know, and especially with how we did it, we had like signed Google Docs. Like talk about the en, the complete antithesis of what you had. Yeah. I had like signed Google Docs. And like rules written out and shared notes on the phone, and I think that's great.

[00:22:44] It was great, but then it also, I forget which book it is. Of course, I'm like the biggest bookie on all of this as well. You have to leave error room for error of the human heart. Of course. That's hard because then it's like when you so say as a hypothetical, right? We agreed. That you wouldn't have sex.

[00:22:58] Mm-hmm. But then in the moment, [00:23:00] you do. You do. Yeah. And then there is like a a level, level of empathy that should be present in that moment, that could be present in that moment. But me in a jealousy spiral is, I'm like, but you signed this Google Doc saying you wouldn't, right? And it's like, well, okay, well things got out of hand and I'm telling you this right now, and I'm sorry that I broke this, but it was good experience in this, that, or the other.

[00:23:20] And it's like those are, those were very interesting moments. For me to be like, but I'm gonna sue you. Hilarious. I'm taking you to court because you signed here. Um, that's hilarious. But like, and also just so silly, but, so real, so real. Yeah. I 

[00:23:36] guess that is fascinating. I mean, the, why do you continue to sign up for things that hurt you?

[00:23:41] But then again, what did I just say? I continued to sign up for monogamy and it hurts me 

[00:23:46] Totally. And that's why I think there's no right or wrong in. It is. Polly is so mainstream now, but I do continue to find, the word is the practice is not a hundred. Yes. I'm running into so many people that are like, I'm Polly.

[00:23:57] And then I'm like, awesome. What does that look like for you? [00:24:00] And it's like, well, I just sleep with whoever I want. And I'm like, whatever I want. Woo. And that's so dangerous for the word. It's dangerous. Like, I hate to sound this way, but it's like dangerous for the community. It's dangerous for the people that are really ethical in it.

[00:24:10] Mm-hmm. And that do take the time to ask the questions further of like, you know, there's also just being single. Sleeping with whoever you want doesn't, you can also, you can identify as single poly, but there's, you know, I, I believe in the differences of these things. Of, like, polyamory for me is multiple loves.

[00:24:24] That's multiple relationships. Right now. I'm not in any, in any, yeah. So I'm single, but at one 

[00:24:30] point you were in three. Yeah. Very real. Three different relationships. Yeah. That you treated the way that I would treat 

[00:24:37] one. Yes. And especially the three was, I think three was about. The limits of time. But the two, we did that for six years.

[00:24:47] Yeah. And that was, yeah, fully fleshed out relationships, vacations, holidays together, together separately. And that navigating, especially for my ex-husband and I, It's amazing. I can say [00:25:00] that we're very good friends now. He's about to come out to California to visit me and through all that we've been through and all of those negotiations, and he's just the most generous, wonderful, smart, empathetic man.

[00:25:10] We grew so close going through those. Learning curves and learning bumps together. Mm-hmm. And it was not pretty. And I don't wanna paint to anyone that it is pretty, these were scream, crying on the floor. This was, I need two days alone to process. You know, this was a, it was really hard, but I think both of us really believed that.

[00:25:28] For the most part, it was really worth it for the growth that happened on both of our sides, and we both came out of it. You know, he's in a relationship right now. I'm not sure if they identify as open or closed. Sure. But we carry these tenants forward and so many of the tenants, I mean, these are just like basic human things of communication and honesty and cultivating so many monos relationships would benefit from like, Sit down with your person and design what you want.

[00:25:51] Yeah. What and what does monogamy look like? What does cheating look like? Some people are like, oh, if my partner looks at porn, that's cheating. Some people are, if you're flirting with a girl at a bar, that's [00:26:00] cheating. Mm-hmm. Some it's just the sexual act. Right. But is kissing someone, like what is, we have to define these things because each person defines them uniquely and differently, and I think kind of, if people take the time to read some literature and come from.

[00:26:13] The non-monogamous world, monogamy will thrive in a new way too. 

[00:26:17] I fully agree with that. Yeah. Because I do think that there is a lot left in the gray, partially because it's just not been asked of us. And then because I think sometimes it's really scary to say, Hey, looking at porn is cheating to me.

[00:26:30] Please don't do that. Totally. And while that is not something that I personally, that's not something that I actually feel defines cheating to me. What I would is I think if I'm dating somebody who is constantly in a text or DM relationship with another woman. Mm-hmm. I don't care if you ever kiss or not, what are you doing?

[00:26:50] Right. Sure. Now maybe you're friends and that's different, but like that emotional flirting Right. That's happening on a regular basis. Got to go. Yeah. 

[00:26:59] [00:27:00] And but, and that exactly is like, To be then so defined between two people, but we risk putting our boundaries forward, then we risk loss. Yeah. And Esther Pearl talks about that a lot, about being like, if you want a relationship with that person, like you just have to really go through in your brain, like me bringing anything forward mm-hmm.

[00:27:16] Is a risk to lose that person. 

[00:27:18] And also, yeah, like how strong are your boundaries? Like you said, you know, sex was off the table and, and one of your partners crossed that. Mm-hmm. And then you. Chose to, I'm assuming continue the relationship. Yep. Which should be hard for me. Totally. I'm, I'm really like, I have a lot, like I have trust issues and if you cross the trust issues, it's really hard for me to get back 

[00:27:40] in the game.

[00:27:41] Totally. But I think then it's like I. The on the flip side, I have crossed those two. It's like in the same exact way I've overstepped on a contract as well. And so that's where extreme empathy comes into play of being like true fault of the human heart. Cuz it's like if he had gone out and slept with someone random on a night that we hadn't spoken about X, Y, Z, so [00:28:00] many things, I think I'd feel so differently about it.

[00:28:01] But it's like everything else was. You know, and again, not that we didn't get in a huge fight about it or any of those things, or vice versa when I've overstepped, but it's like everything else is so in line that you're like, okay, I see in that moment how this happened. Yeah. How this happened. And of course, like I think something that gets very tricky is like, I.

[00:28:18] You go out on a date. Mm-hmm. You have four or five drinks or whatever. You know what I mean? Sure, sure. You're drinking, you're li you're heard of it. Oh yeah. I've, I've heard of booze. I've heard of it before. But also, you know, we talk about like n r e, new relationship energy. Mm-hmm. You're sitting in front of someone that you're infatuated with, you're really attracted to.

[00:28:34] The chemicals are swirling and it's like, You know, sometimes it's like, oh gosh, I forgot to text you. Oh God, I'm three hours late. Time just flew. I was with this person. I know. I said I'd be home at midnight. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That was always my issue is losing track of time. Always, always interesting.

[00:28:50] And that was such a pet peeve. Of course. And of course it was. Of course it was. I'm living with someone and I'm saying, I'm gonna be home at one. And they're trying to go to bed. And then they're like, are you safe? And it's like three texting where back you're texting about F are you and [00:29:00] what are you doing?

[00:29:00] And are you safe? And any of these things. And then me being like, oh God. Oh God. Oh God. And so it's like you really start learning, um, And only through experience and only through messing up how many times for my own self, for my relationship did. Then you start being like, okay, I have to literally set an alarm on my phone for an hour before I have to go.

[00:29:17] So then I'm clocky and a half hour before, and that may be very annoying to the person who I'm on a date with or. It may be really annoying to tell them that like, I have to step out and call my husband and check in. Sure. Because I said that I would. Yeah. And then you, but like then you start interested in being able to weed out people who would eye roll at that.

[00:29:33] Mm-hmm. And then you're like, Ooh, maybe you are not meant to be in my 

[00:29:37] world. Yeah. Because that is a reality 

[00:29:39] of my world. Totally. And if I'm gonna be, wouldn't you want me to be respectful to you? The way that I'm being to him, it was just like, there are so many interesting rules, boundaries, things that you learn by necessity that you bring forth out of fear.

[00:29:51] Mm-hmm. Rules that start like grip. Clinging. Sure. And then you start releasing being like, you know what? That's not so scary. I don't. Yeah. 

[00:29:57] Crazy. So is the, so was the [00:30:00] desire that chasing that dopamine hit of that new relationship energy, I mean, I guess after six years being with your boyfriend and 13 with your husband, like that fades, but.

[00:30:12] I feel like listeners are going to, listeners who are not in ethical, non-monogamous relationships are going to wonder why. Like what is it that you are seeking out or what is it that you are not getting from your husband? 

[00:30:26] Totally, and I think that's such a common question. And I find for so many people, they're like, you know, there's so many, like don't open up your relationship to try and save.

[00:30:33] I agree with that. Your other one. I do too. And then I've also seen examples of like where it's worked. Where it's worked. And that's why I think it's so like course, of course we can't prescribe for others and this is such a self journey. Mm-hmm. And a partner journey. So I don't believe, believe 

[00:30:45] in experts.

[00:30:46] I don't think there's a love expert. I don't think they're relationship experts. I mean, we can call them that, but. And there are people that I think, you know, Esther Perl, I think there are philosophers who have such great insights. Totally. But anybody that's going to try and tell you that they know the way is full of shit.

[00:30:59] A hundred [00:31:00] percent. Yeah. I always call them perspective experts. Yeah, that makes sense. And it's like from this perspective, they are studied and well-read enough on this. Or experience experts where you're like, yeah, okay, you've been in. Poly relationships for X amount of years. Yes. Tell me what you've heard.

[00:31:12] Yes. But yeah, it is, it's so specific and it's like, you know when people are like, there's no one else like you on earth. And it's like, that's like true. And then there's no one else like your partner and then your other partner or however. Mm-hmm. But it's truly, I don't know if it, for me, it never came out of a lack though, at times.

[00:31:27] You could say, my boyfriend had qualities that my husband didn't have. Mm-hmm. And I enjoyed those differences. Now, I never really looked at that as lack from my husband. Mm. But just really different. And especially once they, and they weren't innately friends, they were friends by circumstance for sure.

[00:31:42] And then worked on kind of a brotherhood with each other and became friends. Sure. Um, and now actually I actually don't speak with my ex-boyfriend anymore, but my hus, my ex-husband and him do. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, wow, that relationship has sustained. Which is so cool. Yeah. But, so there were big differences in them, which was really helpful I think for them with jealousy because they were so different from [00:32:00] each other that it wouldn't be like, Oh, is this person better in this way than me?

[00:32:04] They were just so different. Right. I know For some with lack than you can find. Especially like in the kink community. Yeah. Like if someone's, well, that does make sense. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, I don't want, I'm not interested in this. Please go find this with someone else. I can't provide that. It was, you know, I had other experiences.

[00:32:18] I didn't date anyone else in that time. Mm-hmm. Um, but I had other kind of like short-term encounters. And deep permission to flirt, which was huge for me. I'm a very flirtatious person and that had always been seen as bad and negative. And then I met two men who loved that quality in me so much, and who were so supportive of me being flirtatious with others.

[00:32:40] And whether that lead to like kissing them at the end of the night, if that was the vibe or something like that. I explored much more in my energetic sense. Mm-hmm. Than in my sexual sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And just that freedom alone. Cuz also like, to be honest, when you get the freedom to go out and do whatever you want, of course you're kind of like, when you don't do it as much Yeah.

[00:32:56] You're like, well, Cool. Or if, you know, then I 

[00:32:58] smoked way more weed when it was [00:33:00] illegal than, than when it's legal. 

[00:33:01] Totally. Mm-hmm. Well, and it's also like when you know you have to like report back in a spec and not report back. That sounds so heavy. But like in our relationship, we always told each other, of course that was part of your 

[00:33:11] relationship, your rules, right?

[00:33:12] Yeah, 

[00:33:12] yeah. We had to do pre-clearance as well. Okay. Like we couldn't just like follow where a night went and then report later. So then you also start being like, what's worth it? And so then it's really interesting when you're with someone, you're like, okay, I'm attracted to this person. Is this worth me having two?

[00:33:24] For me, I have to, if I was away or even I was like, I have to go talk to my husband about this, and then I have to, you have to clear it. Yep. And then I have to go talk to my boyfriend and get him to clear it. And then I'll come back and be like, okay, what can, or like, what does that look like? And also at that point you're literally like, I'm booked with these two other boys 90% of the time this week, so here's my two windows I have to give you any time.

[00:33:45] And you, someone just had to really be worth it. I 

[00:33:47] feel like that way now with no one. I'm actually Oh, great. That's, I knows beautiful, but like that's, that's. I do relate to that feeling that like, what is worth it? What is worth? If you are going to just disrupt my peace, or I'm [00:34:00] going to bring you into my world or give you some of my energy.

[00:34:03] Yes. Whether that's just emotional, sexual, whatever. I wanted it to be worth it. Totally. And I did not feel that way for the majority 

[00:34:11] of my life. Yeah. And I think that's a learning curve for so many of us in whatever way that sort of presents itself. Mm-hmm. Because it is, it's like as we get older, it's like my time is precious.

[00:34:20] And also I don't, we've been through so much pain mm-hmm. That I'm not looking to like easily sign up for that. Sure. Of course. Pain is inevitable. Yeah. And I believe with great love comes great hurt and all of those things as well. Me too. But it's like, yeah, I really am vetting people in a different way.

[00:34:34] But it was interesting to do it then as well. Because of course a lot of people were like, oh, you're just gonna go do whatever you want. And I'm like, well, no, cuz I don't know if it's, and it's also, I don't know if it's worth missing a night with my boyfriend or missing a night with my husband. Right.

[00:34:46] Like if I have to schedule someone else in that week, you have to like, like wow me, please. Yeah. Like please, please be so exciting and do something so cool. So, Do you want kids? I 

[00:34:55] do. Great. Okay. I can't wait to, I wanna know what you think that's going to look like [00:35:00] or, and also I wanna know about finances with being married and also with your boyfriend and how that, I know again, we're gonna say this a million times, but every relationship is different and just like totally.

[00:35:12] Every polyamorous relationship is not the same. Like, you know, I know a ton of people in open relationships and they're all very, very different and they all have very different rules. But at least for you specifically, what did the financial aspect look like? And was that autonomous or were there also rules to that?

[00:35:29] It was sort of 

[00:35:29] interesting. I guess I haven't thought about that in a while. So my boyfriend, so my husband and I lived together. Yeah. And my boyfriend had his own place. Mm-hmm. And so my husband and I shared our finances. In the way that we did, which was kind of like we had our own credit cards we would put towards relationships together.

[00:35:44] We both worked on Broadway, so we had the same income, same salary, and all of that. Sure. Um, so we pretty much split our life 50 50 as need be with that. Sure. And then for like holidays and stuff like that, we'd pretty much just go in on thirds. The three of us would just split if we all went on vacation somewhere, or if we were all doing a meal or something, we would [00:36:00] really just try and keep tabs on evenness.

[00:36:02] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In that and contributing in that way. But also, like my husband and I would cover things sometimes for. My boyfriend because that just seemed to be like the easier way or dependent, you know? Sure. Okay. That seemed, that was never money, never was an issue for us. We very briefly spoke about, especially towards the end of the relationships, me having kids with both of them, and it was a really interesting topic of discussion.

[00:36:26] We didn't get too deep in it. We were like, what would this look like us living together? What does living together full-time look like for the three of us? Right. Would that be three? We each have our own bedrooms. And then I skip hop around for like what I want my evening to be or whatever. Sure. Because of course, after, I think after five years, my boyfriend was like, it would be nice to have like consistent nights with you, of course, five years later and you're not living with the person or having consistent sleepovers or anything like that.

[00:36:52] So we started having one or two nights a week that I would spend at his house. Which was lovely, but also so interesting for me because sometimes it's [00:37:00] like that wasn't always the most convenient thing. Yeah, I'm sure. Like I don't have a full copy of all my stuff at his place and Oh, that was, that was such an interesting scheduling thing.

[00:37:09] Was he ever seeing other people? Towards the end, both of them were, were seeing other people as well. Okay, okay. And that was not to the demise of it or anything like that, but I think for both of them, we all went through some like really wild and traumatic experiences together that we really, yeah. 13, 

[00:37:23] six years.

[00:37:24] I mean, this is, we're talking about. Very long periods of time. I mean, I, I, I love one thing that Dan Savage says, and he is like, you know, if you're married for 15 years and somebody cheats once, do you consider that successful? Right, right. Totally. You know, like in any other profession situation, You know, I mean, if you look at baseball, which I'm gonna do an atrocious job because I don't know dick about baseball, but is there something about batting averages?

[00:37:50] And like all of the professional baseball players have these crazy averages where it's like, you know, they miss most of the time. Right. So how can that be the norm for a professional [00:38:00] athlete? But then if you fuck up once in a relationship, right, that's apparently you just throw it all down the drain.

[00:38:06] Yeah. But again, like you said then, like what are the, um, the ultimatums, what are the, what are those things of like, what is too much that you can't take, that you do throw it out with? Right. And also I love the question of what defines a successful relationship because now being divorced and not being in that polyamorous relationship anymore, many people are like, so it didn't, you failed.

[00:38:25] Yes. It's viewed as such a failure. And I'm like, I did a decade. I was literally, Married for 10. We were married for 10. Yeah. So we were like, that's amazing. A decade long relationship in Hollywood. That's, that's forever. Totally. I mean, and Polly for six, that is so successful to me. And the things we were able to achieve in that of like vacations and holidays, like these things that are just like milestones.

[00:38:45] Yes. And like when my boyfriend, he got a hip replacement. Mm-hmm. Uh, were all in the art, like we're all performers and he's a dancer. And so we got a hip replacement. You're five, that's fine. Totally, totally. But I remember, um, it like just sticks out to me so beautifully. So he was in the hospital. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:58] Um, Dealing with that. [00:39:00] And I had to like perform on Good Morning America really early in the morning. And so my husband came, had to, I had to. I'm so, it was such a, it was torture. 

[00:39:07] It was so, honestly, congrats. I don't even know what it's for, but I'm proud. Proud love. Congrats. For you. It was like my 

[00:39:12] husband came and tapped me out.

[00:39:13] Mm-hmm. And slept by his bedside. Mm-hmm. And it's like, Polly to me looked like those moments, it wasn't about that I was having sex with two men, that I was with these two, and they were both like gorgeous and like none of that. What mattered to me are these lovely moments. Where we held each other up when we were struggling and it, it was the family aspect of it and it was so successful.

[00:39:32] We saw through tragedy in our lives. Yeah. The three of us have each went through huge life shattering moments and had twos other support system there. It's like almost that, um, I'm pretty woowoo as a human, but I really think the universe gifted us each other in that chi in that time. So we had more than one to help us through 

[00:39:50] life.

[00:39:51] And is that what you would like to recreate in having kids? I would, or 

[00:39:54] I just love the structure of, um, I've seen some beautiful poly family examples. Okay. And these kids get [00:40:00] to grow up with such a support network. So it's like, if. Mom is at work, then other mom can be home and dad's home that night. Or like there's just more people around to raise them.

[00:40:10] Mm-hmm. And something that I do really love that Esther Pearl talks about a ton is like the village and the community that we've really lost that. Back in the day there were like communities raised kids. Mm-hmm. And there were like, I mean, even. We just don't experience this in LA or New York where it's like, you know, you have your group of friends in the neighborhood and everyone runs out, and then you're all over several of their mom's house.

[00:40:29] Mm-hmm. And for like the night or the weekend, and we just don't quite live in that. I had that growing up. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you're raised by all these other families and you get these other viewpoints, and so I would love for my kids to just have. Multiple people that they're growing up with and also learning that like I wish we all saw from a younger age, you know, I grew up with pretty progressive parents, but still felt like my divorce was a failure.

[00:40:49] And I would love to show kids that relationships come and go and some stand the test of time and some are just for a season, but love can be present. Mm-hmm. Throughout all of that. Mm-hmm. And so [00:41:00] to be the example, sort of why I asked 

[00:41:01] you what you defined as a relationship, I mean, Yeah, and also like how you define love.

[00:41:06] I mean, I think that in, I'm gonna, I'm about to make a weird fucking parallel, so bear with me, but I love it. I think in the same way that we have, we consider sex to be penetrative sex. That's like sex, is that right? The same thing goes for a successful relationship. It's like, oh, it's, you get married and no one ever cheats, and you die happily ever after.

[00:41:28] Totally. As opposed to maybe thinking about. What happiness is on a day-to-day and what love looks like on a day-to-day, and then trying to recreate that. 

[00:41:39] Yes, I agree. So wholeheartedly they talk about like the relationship escalator. Mm-hmm. Of like, people think it's successful. You date, you seriously date you move in together.

[00:41:48] Mm-hmm. You get engaged, you get married, you have kids, you buy the house, you do the, and you're just like, wow. So that's the one example we get. Right. Nothing else. Right? Yeah. Yet divorce rates are so high and I don't know the statistics, statistics on it, [00:42:00] but I bet it's probably like around 50 50 now. Oh no, it's, oh, sorry.

[00:42:03] It's 51%. Oh, amazing. Yeah. Divorce rate. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, and so like how are we not normalizing that more as like success is also, I was with this person for a season. Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:14] And you're still friends. Yeah. That's to me's success. Oh my gosh, I'm friends with the men that I dated that didn't cheat on me.

[00:42:20] Totally. And that's just truly because I also have like learned things where I'm like, oh, you trash. And like, I don't want trash in my life, so totally bye. But also 

[00:42:28] betrayal is so, um, that makes such sense to me. Sure. And but my divorce, no one betrayed the other, you know? No one. Of course, of course, of course.

[00:42:35] There's, of course, it was still heinous. Divorce is horrible. Even the best divorce is. Horrible, and it took years and a lot of pain for the two of us. But to be able to come out the other side as friends. Yeah. Would you ever get married again? Ooh, I debate this all the time. Yeah. 

[00:42:50] Well, just given, given what you just said about divorce and also what does it even, what does marriage even mean?

[00:42:56] I mean, if, if a relationship, if you're defining a relationship, As [00:43:00] sort of the day-to-day or as the cultivation of love, right? Marriage is much more of a legal binding contract. Look, I know you like the L, the Google Docs. I do. So maybe this is up your alley, but then you know, and knowing what you hope to achieve in this next season of your life.

[00:43:15] Yeah. I'd be curious to know if marriage is even a goal. 

[00:43:17] I really debate it. Pros, legal pros. I don't know. I always got a tax return until I got married and then I didn't get tax returns anymore. So I was literally like, I was like, is there, people are like, there's a tax benefit to being married, but like literally prove it.

[00:43:28] I did not see that. But I love the benefit. Well, I love, uh, if you're in a hospital, Your spouse can get to you. My boyfriend, when I was in the hospital, could not come visit me without a complete and total rigamarole, but my husband could walk right in. Mm-hmm. And so there's no way to kind of structure that.

[00:43:42] And I know gay couples dealt with that for the longest time and just like, it's horrible of being like, that document means then you can get access in a time of crisis. Yeah. And so, I understand if I were to have 

[00:43:53] kids, power of attorney, all of that stuff is really, yeah. Is 

[00:43:56] huge. And like when you're trying to protect people, but I need to look up if you can draw those documents [00:44:00] up in any other legal way.

[00:44:02] I know you cannot be married to more than one person legally, which is still so wild to me. Because again, it's like, what is marriage like? What does that mean? So you can only legally be bound to one person specifically, but what if you drew it up differently? I would be like spiritually. Romantically.

[00:44:15] Married again, for sure. Getting married paperwork wise is so easy and getting divorced is so hard. Difficult. Yeah. It took it and it just sits in a system. It was all I, this was all during the pandemic as well, and it sat in the e-filing system for eight months and there's nothing I could do. And it's just like you're just in this like purgatory and then like name change and like all of these things.

[00:44:34] It was really difficult. And again, I think marriage is in the eye of the beholder, like marriage is how you define it too. So it's like, would I like that level of commitment with someone Again, I would with multiple people maybe. Yeah, but I'm really iffy on it. So 

[00:44:48] now that you're single and dating, I gotta go.

[00:44:50] Gotta go 

[00:44:51] sweating. Sweating. What? And you're, and, and you're open and you're poly and you are seeing a lot of people who are pretending to be that. But what are, what [00:45:00] do you think the biggest misconceptions about being ethically, non-monogamous or polyamorous are, what are you running into? I'm 

[00:45:06] running into and I'm very, it's so funny, the way in which I have entered the dating pool is like baby toe, like a belly flop.

[00:45:12] Oh no. Like baby toe, like full. I am pretty terrified of everybody, but it's more so I find a lot of misconceptions with myself of like, oh, she's poly. Oh, she's open, she's a good time. But not dating material and not long-term material where it's like, oh, she's for fun and we're gonna have a great time and this whole thing.

[00:45:29] But if I'm really gonna look to settle down with someone, she's not that option. And that breaks my heart because I am looking for, Relationships. Yeah. So they assume you're slutty. Yes, and I'm actually the least slutty I've ever been right now in being, because again, it's like almost, or if I wanted to be, I almost feel like I can't be.

[00:45:46] Cuz then that perpetuates the like poly girl doing whatever she wants out here. Sure, sure. When I'm like, no, I want intellectual and emotional and romantic connection with people. And like I'm 

[00:45:55] trying to build trust Yes. With other people 

[00:45:57] and transparency and openness and so 

[00:45:59] I'm Do [00:46:00] you find that more with men or Same with women, 

[00:46:03] or, I'm much less versed in dating women properly.

[00:46:06] Sure. Versus like having like hookups or anything like that with them. The women I'm encountering currently right now are the most incredible, unsurprisingly to me, incredible emotionally mature. Communicative, loving wonderful humans. Mm-hmm. And I see dating so much clearer with them. Oh, interesting.

[00:46:23] Though. Desire wise, right now, I think I'm just more inclined to be attracted to men in a specific way, or, I don't know. I'm, I'm like really trying to figure out, navigating that with what that is for me. But I find with women the availability for communication is so present early on, on a first or second date, you can open up about all of this.

[00:46:39] Sure. And have a great ear. And with men, I'm finding that not to be the way, but when I'm finding a lot with men right now, Men want to have a full relationship. They wanna have a full thing and then just truly not call it that. They want to have, they want, they want a 

[00:46:54] cake. Oh yeah. And then they want to eat it too.

[00:46:56] Yes. And it's less about 

[00:46:57] the leg. And also get like cupcakes. Oh. [00:47:00] And fully a full buffet of other things as well. And that is, it really buckles my mind because again, I'm not looking for monogamy. Yeah. So I'm like, why can't we call this a relationship? A spade. A spade? Right. But they want companionship.

[00:47:14] They want sex, they want consistency. They want all of these things. And then, I mean, we're seeing this, I mean, it's jokes all over TikTok. Of course. Yeah. And then the moment a girl's like, so what are we doing? The guy runs for the hills. Yeah. And I'm like, what? And I don't, I don't mean to gender this as much as I am, but I do find it to be that way in experience and through hearing my friends talk about it.

[00:47:33] Like, what is that phenomenon that we are so afraid of? Commitment or, um, the word people don't want expectations. There are plenty of healthy expectations. We expect. I also think 

[00:47:41] we all have expectations, of course, and so many of them are, is natural, 

[00:47:45] are brilliant. Like I had the dentist this morning. The dentist expected that I would be there because 

[00:47:49] I mean the.

[00:47:50] And I expect, and that's how your dentist and my dentist are different. No dead ass. My dentist will text me, they text me, they email me, then they text me. They're like, are you coming [00:48:00] in? Like saying, they're like, get outta bed. They're like, Hey, just, just wanna remind you, Hey, we haven't heard from you. And I'm like, yeah, cause I'm trying to ghost you.

[00:48:05] But after three text messages, I'm starting to feel very guilty. And then I'm like, fuck, I didn't cancel. So I show up anyway. This is not about my dentist. That's so funny. 

[00:48:12] Wait, honestly, I love that. But, but expectations. So then your dentist knows they have the expectation that you're trying to ghost them.

[00:48:18] They're like, She's slippery. Right? Totally. But like expectations are so normal, but everyone right now is like, I don't want anyone to expect anything from me. Literally why? We're adults, we're literal adults. Yeah. And these are human hearts that we're dealing with. And you can even be dealing with someone's heart if you're just having sex with them.

[00:48:34] I don't understand why there isn't a bigger movement of being better to each other right now in any way, shape or form. Like don't we just wanna be good to each other? Whether it's a one night stand. Or whether it's a 15 year long marriage. Yeah. Or a lifelong marriage. Like, yeah, let's be good to each other.

[00:48:48] But this regardless. Yes. Yeah. But this whole like, we're making people placeholders until something better comes along or we're not willing to negotiate our wants and needs because that's too scary. Or it makes it too real. I. And I'm just obsessed with men [00:49:00] feeling, finding things to be too much expectation and too real.

[00:49:02] Y'all we're 30, like you have big boy jobs and we're we're big kids now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there are expectations there. And also like we're adult. I don't know, I'm just like so baffled at the way that people are acting like we're all 12 and you're like, Ooh, I like you and I'm gonna do all the things.

[00:49:17] I like you, but like I don't wanna do 

[00:49:19] too much about that. So it's interesting. You are seeing basically poly being perverted Yes. Through dating app culture. Yes. 

[00:49:28] And then also finding people who have multiple meaningful relationships with others. Mm-hmm. And some that go on, you know, I have friends who've have seen like the same three guys for a year or two.

[00:49:37] Sure. But none of them are in a relationship and no one's like talked about anything. And she deals with her own kind of turmoil on that of being like, you know, she's like, I'm 31. And I wanna have kids and like time is ticking, but none of these three men wanna do it. That want to like take any steps forward.

[00:49:54] Though they do, they hypothetically can talk about family and kids, but they're not ready to do that now. And so, but then also one of [00:50:00] like, the guys knows that she's seeing other people, but then like the other others don't. And it was like, where is the light? We just put it out all on the table. Sure. And can deal with like reality, right?

[00:50:09] Of human desires, wants, needs, expectations. Also, like if you. Date someone you can get out of it this whole, like, my good Lord, you're gonna be locked down for the rest of your life. No. 

[00:50:19] Like you got out of a 

[00:50:20] divorce. Totally. Yeah. So anyway, it's, it's been very interesting to kind of navigate that being understood, but also trying to understand what's happening out there.

[00:50:29] And so I'm quick on the communication front with anyone of being like, you know, also when people are like, well, what are you looking for before we meet? And being like, well, I'm looking to meet you in person to like understand who you are as a human being. 

[00:50:40] But secondly, like to see if I even vibe with you as a 

[00:50:42] person.

[00:50:42] Totally. And then from that vibey point, if it's like a dating situation, I guess, you know, I say that like I'm not really interested in long-term monogamy. Sure. Though, some, I don't know. Maybe that would be the thing, but you just don't know until you know and can decide and make those decisions together.

[00:50:57] I. But I haven't found anyone yet who's [00:51:00] willing to even get to the point to wanting to make decisions together. I find lots of situations where I either feel I have all the power Hmm. And I'm making the decisions and calling the shots and someone's kind of along for my ride. Mm-hmm. Or I'm along for their ride.

[00:51:11] Interesting. And that's very interesting. And I find that to be a lot of other people too. Like a lot of my female friends with these guys, they're just like, great, well then I'm just gonna let it be. Cause I like spending time with him, so I'm just not gonna bring up Yep. My wants to the table because I know they'll be rejected.

[00:51:25] Yep. And you're like literally, yikes. 

[00:51:27] Yeah. When you figure this out, like when you get into your next relationship where you have met someone and you've figured that out, do you promise to come back and share that story? Oh, I will bring 

[00:51:36] them here and I'll be like, I wanted to have a conversation. Yes. And decide things together and not pull power plays.

[00:51:42] And my therapist talks about object constancy a lot. What's that? So it's like, if I put this here, it's a liquid death can for people listening to the show, liquid Death Water. And if I walk into the other room, I expect when I come back that that can is gonna be at the same spot I left it. Mm-hmm. So that's an [00:52:00] interesting thing with relationships right now too, is that.

[00:52:02] There's not a lot of object constancy. Mm. So you can be having a great thing going with someone. They go away for the weekend and they come back and it's as if it's like they're a different person or the situation has completely changed. 

[00:52:13] Oh my God. I was, this is a few years ago, but I was dating this guy.

[00:52:16] We were dating, we had a conversation on Friday about how he really liked me and wanted to see where this was going, uhhuh, and it was like, well, let's make this official. Mm-hmm. On Monday, I dead ass got a text message from him, which I. Have co-opted to use as my breakup text for everybody. But, um, he, and then Playboy literally did an article about don't ghost just lie.

[00:52:34] So this is the text. He was like, I recently reconnected with an ex and I need to see where it goes. So like, I need to follow that, blah, blah, blah. That's right. He's now married with kids to her, so like, God bless, he was, he made the right move. But I remember being like, my guy, what happened this weekend?

[00:52:48] Totally. That we went from being a thing. To now you are back with your ex like Right. That's fucking cray cray. 

[00:52:54] It is cray cray. And also what's cray cray is you weren't given an option in that. Nope. You were informed. I 

[00:52:59] was [00:53:00] informed, yes. 

[00:53:01] That everything you thought was true on Friday is now no longer true.

[00:53:04] And usually now what happens at this state is like, kind of like, and there's no room for negotiations, which is crazy. Cuz had I 

[00:53:10] realized like the depths in the, I mean, they're, they're. They got married, they have kids, plural. Beautiful. Like, love that for them. Yeah. Um, and this was several years ago. So like, he made the right choice, but like I would've said Yes.

[00:53:19] Right. Go on God's speed. Right. He had never had sex with a girl in her period. I was the first one. Wow. And probably the last one, but, which is so crazy. Like obviously that was not gonna be my guy, you know? 

[00:53:28] But, but it is, it's these things of, um, and again, people are allowed to change. We are allowed to grow.

[00:53:33] We are allowed to grow closer in things away from things. But there is this huge trend right now. Oh, there's a beautiful article out about it. About, wait, we were talking about it. The therapy article. Yes. Yes. About like someone being toxic and then we're actually like walking toxic therapy. Yes. But that we're also walking into situations being like, I'm gonna tell you how this is gonna go, and I don't even wanna hear your response because that's putting too much on me.

[00:53:54] Right. We have 

[00:53:55] stopped. I can't handle this. Yes. Or my therapist thinks I don't need to deal this, or This is not good for [00:54:00] my health, or 

[00:54:00] whatever. Oh. Hearing someone else's response is no longer good for our mental health, and we are losing the skill of negotiation, we're also losing the communi skill.

[00:54:07] Communication, empathy. Yeah. Care. Yeah. Uh, having good bedside manner. Right. Literally, 

[00:54:12] figuratively. Selfishness 

[00:54:13] is great, but to a point, yes. And we are, we're in this whole, I put myself first, which again, so many great components and so many people did not learn those tenants. When they were younger, so great.

[00:54:22] But also we are now in this age of people are just informing people. Mm-hmm. That's of what's happening. Crazy. And that is wild because that just would've been different had he sent you a text being like, this is what, how about this? This is what happened this weekend. I know I said that is Friday. This Exactly.

[00:54:36] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I get so on people. My biggest communication pet peeve is when someone cannot acknowledge that they said something different or that their actions are against their words. Right, right. Because it's just a thing of being like, Hey, on Friday, I know I said this to you and I really meant it when I said it, and then I had this experience this weekend and I'm so sorry, but this is what happened and this is what I'm feeling now.

[00:54:58] A hundred, yeah, that's good [00:55:00] communication. Yeah, I just don't understand why we can't 

[00:55:02] do that. So to wrap it up, it sounds like for you, this poly lifestyle has gone hand in hand with communication and trust. It's less about sex than it is about building emotional consistency and relationships with people.

[00:55:18] So on that note, what is the best love advice you've ever been given 

[00:55:23] to leave people better than you found them? And I have done that and I have not done that and I have, so I don't try and live and regret in this, but even with how I ended my marriage and the relationship with my boyfriend, I wish I would've done it with more grace and more love.

[00:55:38] And when someone said that to me, I don't even remember who said that to me, leave people better than you found them. That is not always easy to do, but I think it's something really worthy to strive to do. Hmm. And whether that be, again, a one night stand or a lifelong marriage or any of that, how can we impact people for the better?

[00:55:52] We have been the victims of being really messed up by others, and how can we make a conscious effort to not continue that pattern and, you know, stop that with [00:56:00] us. I'm 

[00:56:00] obsessed with that answer. Paloma, if people want more of you, how do they 

[00:56:04] find you? You can find me trying to figure out social media on all platforms.

[00:56:09] Not really sure how to do it and not really sure how I feel about it, but Instagram's the best bet at Palo Paloma Garcia Lee. 

[00:56:15] Great. I will link it below in the show notes. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for having me. Uh, this was amazing. Oh my gosh. We could go forever. We could truly do this. We could go forever.

[00:56:23] 14 years 

[00:56:24] that just so much on it, you know? And it is like the modern dating landscape is crazy. I'm mor, I'm mortified. 

[00:56:34] Hey guys, this is a call for stories. If you have a dating story, I would love to hear it and it can be a hundred percent anonymous. Just shoot me an email at the address linked below in the show notes regardless.

[00:56:47] Thanks again for listening and see you next Tuesday.[00:57:00]