How to be Your Own Sugar Daddy with Tori Dunlap

[00:16:00] Hello, friends, future friends, haters and ex lovers. Welcome back to another episode of Crimes of the Heart. I'm your host, Rory Uphold, and in keeping with last week's theme, we have an incredible guest for you today.

[00:16:15] Sex and money seem to be two of the most taboo topics, so naturally I'm fascinated by both of them. In previous episodes, we've talked about the importance that financial independence plays in a relationship in the power dynamics, and historically how it's not been something that women have ever had much control over.

[00:16:36] In fact, the reason why so many old school outdated dating books are geared towards how to get guys or how to get a guy to love you as opposed to how to find a guy good enough for you, is that for a lot of years, women's futures depended on who they married and how wealthy their husband was.

[00:16:56] Because women weren't able to have their own credit [00:17:00] cards until 19 19 74. What I'm what? That broke my brain. And that's not even the worst of it. Women couldn't even get a business loan without their husband's name until 1988. wow. Crazy, crazy, crazy. I mean, that is in insane.

[00:17:19] So, of course, the advice from old school generations was gonna be all about how to use your sex appeal or your looks in order to land a wealthy man. But so much has changed since then. I mean, yes, the wage gap, the gender gap, of course, but women investors continue to outperform men and recent stats show that more women are starting small businesses than men.

[00:17:41] Things aren't different, and yet so much of the dating advice remains the same. Which, if you've listened to me for a while, you know I detest. This idea that women need to play games or withhold sex or twist themselves into a pretzel in order to trick a guy into falling in love with them makes me [00:18:00] what a barf.

[00:18:01] It really truly makes me see red. I find it abhorrent, especially since so many of the people offering that advice are either single or in relationships that I would never in a million years want for myself. But I digress. Today's episode is titled How to Be Your Own Sugar Daddy, because one, I'm hilarious, and two, I want everyone to have that, even if they also have a sugar Daddy, a quick disclaimer.

[00:18:25] The patriarchy does not mean men. I am very into men. I think at this point. We all sort of know that. But I am able to both love men and also hate the patriarchy because individuals, yes, make up a system, but the system isn't an individual.

[00:18:39] So to the men listening, thank you. I love you. Also, you can learn a ton today and just know that I very much appreciate you. And to the women and the non-binary listeners today, buckle the F up because my guest has so much to offer you. Who she is an American investor, a [00:19:00] feminist entrepreneur, a New York Times best-selling author for the book, the Financial Feminist, a podcaster, the founder of her first a hundred k and a multi-millionaire, all at the ripe age of 28.

[00:19:13] I am talking about none other than Miss Tori Dunlap. Welcome to Crimes of the Heart. Thank you. 

[00:19:19] I guess first things first, I should say this is very uncool, but I am a huge fan. That's not uncool at all. I really appreciate that. I think what you're doing is really amazing. My parents think what you're doing is really amazing. It's point. Thank you. And I, I've, I've truly been looking forward to this since we booked it several months ago.

[00:19:42] Oh, thank you. Like, I just, I have a feeling that the people that listen to my show are probably not, in to what you talk about, but I hope that this episode puts you on their radar and inspires them to follow you on platforms. Listen to your podcast. Definitely get your book, because I think that [00:20:00] it is, mandatory reading.

[00:20:01] Thank you for all women, people of color. Truly. It's, it's amazing. Thank you. So that out of the way, on page 11 of your book, you say that this is a shame-free zone and a judgment-free zone, which is so aligned with this show because I talk about taboo subjects like sex all the time, and I feel like shame is getting in the way of people having good sex.

[00:20:20] I think shame is also getting in the way of financial freedom. Yeah. But I would love to hear why you think shame is a bad thing specifically for women when it comes to money. Oh God. This could be like an entire, we could just spend the whole hour talking about this. this is true. If I were to go out on the street right now and ask a hundred people, like what emotion do you associate with money?

[00:20:40] I'm probably the only person out of that a hundred that's gonna say something like joy or ease or abundance. And the emotion that is gonna get cited is shame, fear, anxiety, scarcity. Right? Shame has everything to do, unfortunately, with how we feel about money. And I mean, my entire book talks about this.

[00:20:59] The, the [00:21:00] TLDR on it is that we feel deeply ashamed about not knowing about money. Even though no one taught us, we don't feel that shame about anything else, right? Like, If I don't speak fluent Italian and no one taught me of course, how to speak fluent Italian, I don't feel ashamed of that. I'm just like, that's a skill I haven't learned, right?

[00:21:17] But yet, we grow up thinking we're either good with money or we're bad with money, right? It's like a gene. We're either born with the good, with money gene, or we aren't. We don't see it as a skill that is teachable or that is learned where you're bad at it for a while, but as you learn and grow, you're gonna get better, right?

[00:21:33] So we weirdly feel ashamed that we don't know anything about money, even though no one taught us. And we grow up in society, in a system that is, deeply rooted in, shame. And then the very people, if you do get to the point where you're like, okay, I wanna start learning about money. The very people that, we've turned to for many, many years, including my nemesis, he must not be named Dave Ramsey, are the very people who also shame you.

[00:21:53] So a lot of these like personal finance experts, if you do know one, you probably know one. [00:22:00] who is. Deeply, again, deeply rooted in shame. A Dave Ramsey, a Susie Orman, rich dad, poor dad. Right? so when we do f conquer the fear of, okay, I'm gonna start learning about money and I'm gonna get really brave and I'm gonna look at my bank accounts and I'm gonna turn to people for advice.

[00:22:14] The very people we've turned to are people who make us feel like shit. So it's the shame cycle of feeling ashamed of, I don't know about money. Okay, maybe I should start learning about money. Oh, I feel ashamed by the people who are supposed to be making me feel, confident in building my confidence.

[00:22:27] Yeah, they're saying things like, You can't buy a house because you're having lattes every day, which, uh, I spend an entire chapter talking, I mean, really again, the entire book, but an entire chapter talking about how that is such a gendered thing, right? The very spending that's deemed quote frivolous is gendered.

[00:22:43] It's feminine spending, right? It's, lattes or manicures or purses. It's not NFL season tickets or golf clubs, right? It's not Rolex watches. It's a Gucci purse. right? So, you know, it's all rooted in shame. And the funny thing that starts to happen is when you do start to [00:23:00] grow your wealth as a woman or any marginalized group, when you do start to feel financially confident, the patriarchy in society starts weaponizing that and starts going, yeah, but why are you asking for more money?

[00:23:11] You should just be grateful for what you have, right? Or. Why are you talking about your accomplishments so unabashedly, they try to get you to play small. So I truly believe a financial education, not being feminine is our best form of protest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, actively shamed for that.

[00:23:26] Yeah. So I, I truly believe that if you have a financial understanding, if you have money, all of the options open up into you in the world because you're no longer controllable. Right? If I have money, I'm able to leave that bad relationship. If I have money, I'm able to leave that toxic job. If I have money, I'm able to donate to causes I believe in, to start a business, to have kids or not have kids to get married.

[00:23:45] To not get married, to travel. Right. Every option opens up to you. Because you're no longer controllable. So my goal and the mission behind her first a hundred K and my podcast in book Financial Feminist is to provide that feeling for every single woman. That is the feeling I want for every single woman [00:24:00] on this planet is to be in situations she wants to be in, rather than the situations she's forced to be in and to have enough financial standing where she can say fuck off to anything she doesn't wanna do.

[00:24:08] Yeah. I'm obsessed with that. You also say, I'll be quoting a lot of you to you today. It's kinda fun. I'm like, what did I say? Just brace yourself. Yeah. You, say that the thing about shame is that it forces the status quo, but the thing about the status quo for women when it comes to money, this is pretty shitty and I have a lot of like stats here that I'll let you.

[00:24:29] Take, but I'll start with one. It's that women make 82 cents to the dollar. Yeah. And that's average, of course, for women of color, it's worse. Right? That's an average across all women. Latino women, indigenous women, black women make far less. yeah, I mean that one, that's one we talk about all the time, right?

[00:24:45] And we need to continue talking about, and it's, it's so nuanced, right? It's not just, I'm getting paid 20% less than Chad, who has the exact same experience, exact same degree, um, exact same skillset. It's also the [00:25:00] fact that, the pressure to care take is still on us.

[00:25:03] And that's not just for children, that is for Aing family members. That is for our communities. So the pay gap is not just foster boyfriends. Yeah, yeah, sure. The pay gap is not just, okay, I'm getting paid less for, uh, you know, the exact same amount of work. It's also. The burden is still on women to, care.

[00:25:21] And of course when that happens, they are out of the workforce, the paid workforce for years, if not decades. And if they do decide to go back in, right, they don't have the same skillset as a man who's been working at that job the entire time that she has, chosen to caretaker, been forced to caretake in most cases.

[00:25:37] it's also, you know, paid family leave. There is no paid family leave required in this country, which is still just bonkers, wild to me. we are the only quote unquote, like industrialized country that does not, mandate a federal leave policy, for any parent, but especially not the, the one that's giving birth.

[00:25:54] So we have people who give birth who are going back to. Immediately after giving birth, [00:26:00] do not have time to bond with their baby, get alone, physically recover because they have to go back to work. And the all of, there's so many factors, right, that contribute to a pay gap. there's also this small factor that women are, not as comfortable negotiating their salary, but that we have workplaces that again, want to control women.

[00:26:19] And whether they realize it or not, have that internalized misogyny of like, why is she asking for more money? She should just be grateful. she should just be grateful she has a job. so I mean, it's the perfect example of what I say in the book, which is personal finance, the equation of personal finances, about 80% circumstances, 20% your personal choices, Yet for many people, many people are taught that the, you know, if you're not rich, it's a hundred percent your fault. And of course we know that's bullshit, right? We know that. But we still, again, feel that shame of, oh my God, why don't, why can't I afford a house? Everybody else can afford a house. 

[00:26:48] Like, Why am I not making more money? Why can't I get my shit together? And I'm like, well, because you live in a racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic society. systemic oppression plays a much bigger part in this equation than [00:27:00] your, inability to like quote, save money or budget. So yeah, the pay gap is one of those like dismal, dismal stats.

[00:27:06] There's others like the wealth gap that's not being discussed as much. Women are either waiting to invest longer than men or not investing at all. because we've been conditioned to just be good savers. And saving money is incredibly important, but investing your money is how you grow your wealth.

[00:27:20] Investing in the stock market, picking smart investments is really how the average person retires and you will not be able to retire if you don't invest. and so we're seeing women take less money because of the pay gap, investing at a lower rate and then living seven years longer than men do. That's the average, is that women will live seven years longer than men.

[00:27:38] So less money growing at a slower rate, and we're expected to live longer on that money. That's an equation that makes no fucking sense to me. None. And I think I read somewhere that you said that women actually save way more than men do, but That they still have less saved because men truly just make that much more.

[00:27:55] Yeah. There's a stat in my book about like, women are saving more money in proportion to their [00:28:00] income, but of course they're just making less. and, women are actually better investors than men. That's the other fun fact too, is that if we do get women starting in to invest, which is, a huge part of my work is getting women to start invest and teaching them how to invest step by step.

[00:28:13] we are outperform men. Our investments outperform men, but we just have to actually get started and we have to get over that, you know, 20 foot stare, uh, in order to climb the rest of the staircase. Oh my gosh, I didn't know that. That's wild. Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:28:24] We'll literally get naked with someone. Before we discuss our finances Yeah. What is up with that? We will do most things before we will talk about money. we know from statistics that we will, uh, have a conversation about sex, politics, religion, death, anything else that's uncomfy before we will talk about money.

[00:28:43] And with our romantic partners, yeah, we will literally have sex sometimes for months, if not years. We will, you know, share many, many things with them, we'll poop in front of 'em before we'll talk about money and like, that's fucking crazy. That's crazy. it's, it's again, deeply, it's [00:29:00] deeply rooted in shame and it's also, money is such a source of tension for people.

[00:29:04] In the first chapter of my book, yeah, the entire first chapter is about the emotions of the psychology of money because I can't teach you how to pay off debt or save money or get a budget together if you don't understand your emotional triggers, if you don't understand what sort of narratives you're believing about money.

[00:29:18] And one of the things that I, I teach in the book is that the vast majority of our money habits, if we don't work to change them, are actually cemented by age seven. So by second grade, the way you view money, unless you work to change, it has already been set. And so you can obviously tell if it's that early that your parents, your caregivers, people you grow up around are the people that are influencing your money story and society in general, right?

[00:29:44] So a lot of financial trauma has been deeply rooted in people for, again, years, if not decades. And this. Up, especially in our intimate relationships, whether that's with friends, a romantic partner, uh, our family, uh, our [00:30:00] coworkers even. Right? And one of the things that's crazy about romantic relationships in particular is that we will avoid this level of intimacy, financial intimacy, and do all of the rest of it first, even though half of marriages or partnerships end in separation.

[00:30:17] And the number one reason. Is money, money related issues. So just the stats tell us we need to talk about money, but also emotionally. Like I want to be able to use money as a tool to build a beautiful life with my partner. And even you notice how I said that, right? It's not money is the thing that's preventing me from being able to do this, right?

[00:30:37] Or money's the reason that we can't as a couple do the things that we want to do, or money's the reason we fight Instead, I. Working backwards almost. It's like, okay, if I wanna travel with my partner internationally every year, because that's really important to us, how do we use money as a tool to get there?

[00:30:52] If we wanna have kids in three years, how do we use money as a tool to get there? Right? And that's something where you can start having these [00:31:00] conversations, especially with our romantic partner in a way that's exciting rather than like, oh fuck, we don't have enough money. Or like, money, you, you spending money and maxing out our credit cards is the reason we can't do this, right?

[00:31:10] It's like, no, we wanna do these things together because we have these shared values and this is the life that we want. How do we use money as a tool to get there? And if you're a single person, ask yourself the same question, right? What are my values? What do I want out of this life? Oh, I wanna start a business in five years.

[00:31:25] Okay? How do I use money as a tool to get there? I wanna make sure that I can tip 25% every time I go to a restaurant. How do I use money as a tool to get there? And that's the powerful shift that can make us more comfortable having these financial conversations, either with ourselves or with somebody we love.

[00:31:40] It sounds to me kind of like a, you've figured out a way to flip it from like a scarcity mindset into abundance Right. Reverse of that, which is fascinating. It's fascinating to me because I also think the dup in romantic relationships, especially with women, right? Like there is this, I will say patriarchal narrative of, [00:32:00] of scarcity.

[00:32:00] Yeah. Like there's only so many men and, and women are fighting against each other to get the good man or the rich man or the whatever. But if you flip that, the world unlocks and you realize we're not in competition. There's someone for everyone. There's probably some ones for all of us. Would you approach beginning to chip away at that scarcity mindset that women or women identifying might have when it comes to money?

[00:32:29] I mean, you said it, which is so powerful and can be a metaphor for every aspect of a woman's life. We have been conditioned to believe that you must sit at this table and that there is one seat for somebody like you. Right. We have been conditioned to think that way. And I can't speak personally for people of color, but I know that it's very similar from research and conversations, We have the one diversity hire, we have the one woman, right? that is the thing. And so what the patriarchy has done right, is they [00:33:00] have really said, okay, if we just, if we just provide one seat, they'll all fight each other for it. Then we don't actually have to do anything. They'll tear each other down.

[00:33:08] We don't have to tear them down anymore cuz they'll do it for us. So the metaphor, the quote, I actually start and end my book with, I bookend the, the book I wrote very intentionally with a quote that says, when you have all you need, build a longer table, not a higher fence, And it's this idea of, abundance, of sharing that abundance of not gatekeeping, but also of building a table that includes people, So the current society, the current table we're at is not working right, but it's the one we currently have. And while we work to navigate that system, that table to the best of our ability, I, and many, many people are over on the side trying to build our own table that is limitless, right? That has seats for everybody that has, information and abundance and all of the good things in life, right?

[00:33:56] And the thing I have to encourage you to do, When you start getting [00:34:00] your money together, your entire life changes. And that's not just like me saying like a marketing thing to like get you to, but like truly I can see in my own life, and I can see in our community's lives, when you have money again, you don't tolerate bullshit, you don't tolerate bullshit at all.

[00:34:13] You don't tolerate bullshit from a job, from a boss, from a partner, from your friends because you're like, you see your own worth, right? You're like, wow, no, I, I'm not worth this kind of treatment, or I am worth that kind of treatment that, that I feel really safe and good here and I'm my best self here. So if we can start seeing each other rather than our competition as ways to support us, if we can start championing other people and we can start to believe that we're worthy of everything good in life, of love, of opportunity, of money, everything starts to change.

[00:34:48] And this is why I said before, it's our best form of protest because again, we've been conditioned to believe. That we're okay with scraps, right? Like scraps are acceptable. I don't want a lukewarm life. I don't want a life [00:35:00] of scraps. I want a life of capital A abundance, and capital Es and capital G.

[00:35:04] Good, And I want to make sure that when I have everything I need, again, I'm building that table for other people, that I'm taking other people along with me. So in terms of limiting the scarcity, literally very actionable. When you have a thought that is, oh, I'm not good enough, or, oh, I'm, I'm shit cuz I didn't save money this month, right?

[00:35:24] Or I spent money on that purchase and that was so fucking stupid. Rather than judging yourself and shaming yourself, I need you to redirect that thought. And the redirection might not happen immediately. At least get to the point where you see the thought and you go, that's not entirely fair to myself.

[00:35:39] Right. Just being more mindful of what's going on in your own brain and in your own body. Just going, that doesn't, that's not fair to myself. That's not kind. It doesn't even have to like flip to a kind thought at first. It can just be the calling out of like, Nope, that wasn't great.

[00:35:52] I also don't want you to shame yourself for shaming yourself. Right. Being like, oh, I'm a piece of shit for saying my, I'm a piece of shit. No, just like, [00:36:00] interesting. Okay. Why do I feel that way? It's almost like you're an anthropologist in your own life. You're just like, oh, that was really interesting.

[00:36:04] Okay. I'm, I don't, I don't feel good about what just happened in my own brain, so I, I'm gonna work to not do that anymore. And then as you get more mindful and you get more reflective right, then you can. Actually redirecting, right? And you start to think more positive things about yourself and about the world.

[00:36:20] And then the third step is that that actually starts manifesting in your own life and how you treat people, how you treat yourself, how you show up in a room, how you show up on a date, right? Like this manifests in confidence and self-worth, but that work is internal and it's really fucking tricky. It all comes though from a place of being mindful and of not contributing any more to the shame that you already experience.

[00:36:45] It's crazy cuz sometimes when you're talking, you say things that I have said, but it's about money and minus like, you know, if you get rejected or you're being breadcrumb or a guy breaks up with you or a girl breaks up with you. Yeah. And we all have that personal [00:37:00] narrative. I call it like, like the, the demonn inside our brains.

[00:37:03] Yeah. That's like, oh, it's because I'm too much or it's because I'm not enough. Right. It's whatever it is. Which is interesting because a lot of times that is also tied back to narratives that started in our childhood for whatever reason. you talk about, again, the parallels between dating and money.

[00:37:21] When you first started your career, you would give people hard and fast things to do, actionable items, and they might do it for a short period of time, or they might not do it for a period of time. Yeah. Because what you realized was ultimately when people were coming to you to vent about money, one, sometimes they just needed somebody to listen to them.

[00:37:41] Yep. Just kind of like our friends will call us up and be like, ah, Chad is, is being such a turd. But the takeaway that I really heard from your book is that you realized in order to be able to do your best work, you had to get to the heart of that narrative that people have. Yeah. So for someone who is.

[00:37:59] Gonna get [00:38:00] your book, obviously, but is listening right now. And they're going, huh, I wonder what my emotional hangups are with money. What's one or two things they could do right now to try and start to unpack the patterns that they might have when it comes to money?

[00:38:15] we spent, again, the entire first chapter talking about these common narratives or these common hangups, including I should just know how to money, right? We talked about that before. this misconception that money can't buy us happiness. It actually fucking can happiness, like money can buy us stability and safety and like for the average person, that's fucking happiness, right?

[00:38:32] And then we talk about one of the other narratives again about like talking about money's taboo, right? And really that's a patriarchal narrative meant to keep us underpaid and overworked. So if you have financial trauma, and I guarantee that you do, because even I, a money expert and multimillionaire have financial trauma, I think the first thing.

[00:38:48] Again, it's back to that mindfulness piece of just watch your thoughts, watch, uh, how you feel in your body. And that sounds very woowoo, but like, if you're going to spend money on something and you swipe your credit card and then you [00:39:00] feel like shit after your brain will feel like shit, your body will also respond, right?

[00:39:05] Might get a little sweaty, it might get a little, like your heart will start racing, or you'll also just feel like immediately depleted of energy and you're just like, fuck, why did I do that? Right? That is a beautiful opportunity to slow down and to say, okay, interesting. Why did I purchase that thing? And again, no shame.

[00:39:21] Why did I purchase that thing? Oh, I had a terrible day at work and my boss made me feel like shit. And so I went to whatever store and I swiped my credit card and bought a pair of shoes I didn't really need and didn't really want. Okay, interesting. So how can we, how can we avert that from happening again?

[00:39:37] Right? How can we, how can we prevent that from happening? Maybe the realization is like, wow, the, the spending I'm doing is a vice, and the larger problem is I don't like my job. I don't feel respected by my boss. Then to get to the root of that problem, we have to start finding an opportunity that does value us, right?

[00:39:54] In the short term, it is simply going, okay, how can I emotionally, physically respond in a way [00:40:00] that is healthier, that I don't feel guilty after, right? Or I don't feel like I wasted money, wasted time, wasted energy. So again, we're just watching our thoughts and we're like an anthropologist and we're like, okay, that's really interesting.

[00:40:11] It's really interesting that just happened. I, it sounds like I spend money in order to emotionally cope. Okay, so how, how can we work to, how can we change that? Right? Second, when it does come to money and managing money, there's this feeling of overwhelm that many, many people, Site in our community that, that have, you know, just started following us or have come to us.

[00:40:32] They're like, I have done the, like how to save money, panic, Google at two in the morning. And, uh, all of this feels overwhelming and I have debt. Uh, but also I need an emergency fund cuz somebody told me that once. And also I wanna save for a house maybe, but also retirement, but like the world's ending too.

[00:40:46] So like, do I need to do that? It's very easy to get overwhelmed. And again, if we're using like a language example, I'm not gonna become fluent in Italian overnight. That's literally not possible. And that's not a willpower thing. That's a literal like psychology brain thing. My [00:41:00] brain cannot hold an entire new language in one night or one week or one month, or even one year.

[00:41:05] Right. So we're gonna take one simple financial step, shameless plug, maybe that's reading my book from your library or a local bookstore. Maybe that's listening to a podcast episode. Maybe that's just looking at your bills for the first time in a while, just do one thing that'll take you like less than 10 minutes and you just do.

[00:41:23] One more thing and then another, and then another and another. And over a period of time you will start to feel more financially confident. But the goal is to get comfortable being uncomfortable because if you don't look at your money right now, You will feel embarrassed the first couple times you do it again.

[00:41:38] If I'm going into, if I walk into Italy, and I am learning how to speak Italian, right? I'm gonna say some stupid shit and I'm not gonna conjugate my verbs correctly. And I'm like, I'm gonna mis pronoun or gender, uh, an object, right? Like that's completely normal. That's part of learning. Anything as you're gonna fall on your butt, it's gonna be a little embarrassing.

[00:41:58] You have to keep [00:42:00] going. It's the same thing with money. So do one little bite size thing and do one more little bite size thing and keep eating little bite size pieces of personal finance advice until suddenly you are starting to see progress. Yeah, I love that. 

[00:42:12] For somebody that might be in debt. You talk about the, like the three priority list. Yes. Could you chapter three is what I call the financial game plan. So it's like starting to set some goals, starting to get a financial plan together. And one of the things I talk about is the financial priority list, because that is the most common question I get is it's like, again, I talked about before, like, I wanna save for retirement.

[00:42:33] I think I have to, and then also savings, but debt, student loans and car loans and mortgages and credit card debt. Like how do I do it right? And I again talk about all of this in great detail in the. But the common misconception that I hear is people think I need to pay off my debt first. And that's understandable, right?

[00:42:48] Because it feels like the thing that's yelling and screaming at you the most, right? It's the thing that's probably causing you the most stress. And, with folks like Dave Ramsey, they have told you like, get out of debt, do that first, no matter [00:43:00] what at any cost, right? I actually take a very different.

[00:43:02] The first priority before you start paying off debt is I need you to have an emergency fund. That emergency fund should be around three months of living expenses, and that needs to live in a high yield savings account. A high yield savings account is like an everyday savings account, except it's gonna offer you more an interest.

[00:43:17] We have the one we recommend on our website. There's plenty of them out there, but basically they're helping you save money because the interest rate is higher with the emergency fund. The reason we do that first is a couple things. One, I don't want you going into more debt trying to pay for an emergency because one will happen.

[00:43:32] You will get laid off at some point. Your dog will get sick, you will get sick, you'll get a flat tire. Something will happen, And I don't want you going into more debt or debt in the first place trying to pay for that emergency. Two, we believe so strongly in mental health first at her first center, K, and just general like health.

[00:43:50] There is something so comforting and so powerful about going to bed at night knowing that you are financially okay, at least for a period of time. If something were [00:44:00] to happen, if an asteroid were to hit your house, you're gonna be okay, right? You are going to be okay financially. to that. Physically you're gonna be fucked. Emergency Sure. If an asteroid hits your house. Yeah, a hundred percent. the, but in tandem to that too. My third reason is, when you are in some sort of crisis or emergency, again, like, let's say I just got fired or I just got laid off. I want money to be the last thing that you have to worry about.

[00:44:23] You are worried about your mental health. You are worried about, you know, or somebody getting sick, right? You need to be present for that person or for yourself. You need to. Worrying and concerned about that, you need all of the mental bandwidth. You have to navigate that to the best of your ability. I don't want money being the thing that you is your concern.

[00:44:40] So, before you pay off any kind of debt, and we do go into how to do that, we have an entire chapter on how to pay off debt. You have to save an emergency fund first. work to do that. That should be your first financial goal before you proceed to paying off something like credit cards. I think part of what I love so much about you is that you are so conscious about the mental health, health aspect because [00:45:00] it is like, we just have talked about, you know, already that money makes us feel bad or contemporarily make us feel good, but knowing that you have a cushion that provides a certain amount of freedom is such a, a powerful thing.

[00:45:16] you also said something about saving money is, is kind of like dieting. And that you support more of the intuitive eating style of, of saving because this idea of your, like nemesis or some of the other people that we will not mention, it's very restrictive and it is kind of impossible to restrict yourself for sustainable periods of time.

[00:45:38] And not only is that not realistic, it sucks. It absolutely sucks to take out carbs and sugar out of your diet for a full year. Like I would be, I mean, we're seeing it now with all these people on Ozempic. We've all been around somebody that is on a crazy diet and, and they're not particularly fun to be around.

[00:45:54] And yet that is kind of like the number one tip that you get when it comes to, [00:46:00] becoming wealthy. It's like, save your money. Don't buy avocado toast. Don't get your nails done. Don't do your hair. could you give me like your take on how to cultivate healthy spending? Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's interesting, even the things you just listed, right, are all feminine things that are considered frivolous.

[00:46:16] Even the financial advice for women, right? Is like deprive yourself, right? Shrink yourself. For men, it's expand your wealth, right? It's negotiate your salary or get a better your paying job or invest or buy real estate, right? And for women, the financial advice is like, stop spending money. restrict yourself, deprive yourself.

[00:46:32] And that is dieting. I, I have a whole section in the book where again, diets don't work. 99% of diets fail because the more you tell me I can't have fried chicken, the more I want fried chicken. And again, not a willpower thing, a literal psychology thing. We are not looking for a crash diet, right? Where, uh, you are restricting yourself so heavily, that you know, you end up hating your life and that you end up, you know, crashing and burning and then binging after, right?

[00:46:56] That's just not, that's not healthy. That's not sustainable. And frankly, that's not fun. [00:47:00] So what the spending plan I have come up with, with our community is identifying what I call your three value categories. These are, these are the three areas in your life that you get the most joy and where you want the majority of your discretionary money to go.

[00:47:12] So for me, my three are travel food out, and I don't, not sure if you can see the video on this, but plants, I have 55 plants in my house and probably like 20 in my office alone. so those are the three things that I spend pretty unabashedly on and I don't spend money on much else. and the reason I do that, and again, you're like, okay, but you're depriving yourself of everything else.

[00:47:32] And I'm like, no, everything's a trade off, right? It's like, okay, I wanna travel to Italy. I know I will get the most joy doing that. That's something that I value and love. That might mean that I don't buy coffee, but it means I get to buy the thing I really want. Right? My friend Paula Pant, who's a fellow finance expert, says, you can afford almost anything.

[00:47:49] You just can't afford everything. Right? And so it's, it's you deciding what you value. Now, do I buy the occasional Starbucks? Yeah, a hundred percent. Do I buy sweaters at TJ Max when they're on sale? Yeah, a hundred percent. But it's more this [00:48:00] idea of making sure that the majority of your money reflects your values and gives you the best like return on happiness investment because you work hard for your money.

[00:48:08] Again, I don't want you in a situation where you're spending money on things that make you feel lukewarm, that you don't really care about. You don't have to stop spending money, but you do need to stop spending money on shit you don't care about. So you can either save it or spend money on the shit you really love.

[00:48:21] Yeah, it again, it's kind of like finding a partner like, yeah, we might want somebody that's six five, but is that actually what we want or that's going to make us feel. Sustained in the long term. It might. And if it does, honestly, God bless you. Good for you. Have fun. I'll take an emotionally intelligent person over a tall person any day, but that's just me.

[00:48:43] Me too. Me too. Me too. I have dated some literal gargoyles. Yeah. But they have been personality hires. now, if they're both tall and emotionally intelligent, great. I love that. But yeah, if I had to pick one, I'm taking the emotionally intelligent, respectful partner over just a guy who's tall.

[00:48:59] [00:49:00] I, I fully agree. But I think it's so, it's, it's the same kind of inner work to figure out what it is that you really want. That makes it so much easier when the tall guy that we've put on a pedestal rejects us. It's like, oh, that's fine. I want the emotionally intelligent guy. It is so similar, navigating both worlds. 

[00:49:17] Hey guys, I wanted to announce this week's winner. If you signed up for the email list on the show's website, you are always automatically in the running for our giveaways, and last week, the lovely team over at Higher Love, AKA at Higher Love Vibes on Instagram, sponsored a giveaway of their popular dream wand kit. And that winner is drum roll. Chloe Hampton. Congrats Chloe. And thank you for listening to the show and for signing up for the email list. I appreciate you and we will get that in the mail to you. For everyone else, I hope you are enjoying this episode so far, and if you are, please drop at five stars on whatever app you're listening to it on and consider giving us a review. And by us, I mean [00:50:00] me and all my personalities, and if that's too much, just share this episode with a friend who might benefit from some solid financial wisdom. Again, this is an indie show, so any and all word of mouth really helps and you sharing, reviewing, rating, et cetera, helps me get the word out. All right, let's get back to the show.

[00:50:16] What's the number one way that women can build financial wealth investing? A hundred percent. again, I think the, the thing that happens is people either don't know that investing's important, or if they do, they get started and they immediately get overwhelmed because these platforms use jargon and they don't make any sense, which is why we actually started an investing community of our own that literally teaches you step by step how to invest.

[00:50:38] but yeah, like I said before, the average person will not be able to retire if they don't invest. There's also investing misconceptions that investing is gambling, that I can lose all my money. and smart long-term investing does not lose it never has, right?

[00:50:51] We're not picking the hot stock. We're not day trading. We're picking sustainable things for years, if not decades. and saving your money is so important, right? I [00:51:00] talked about emergency savings before. We can't though have 50,000, a hundred thousand dollars just sitting at a bank account, right? Unless that's your three months, why not?

[00:51:07] Of living expenses, which would be fucking incredible, but like it has to be working harder for you and it has to be growing at a rate that is higher than your savings account for your long-term goals like retirement, you can calculate how much you would need to be able to retire comfortably at the standard retirement age of 65.

[00:51:27] And for the average person, that is millions of dollars to sustain yourself for typically 10, 20, 30 years during the most costly years of your life. Now, I'm 28. I imagine a lot of people listening are in their twenties or thirties and they're like, cool, but retirements are really far ways away and I don't need to worry about it.

[00:51:43] here's the thing. Time is more important than the amount of money when it comes to retire. So even if you just have a small amount of money, investing it right now means that it will grow exponentially because you're giving it as much time to grow as possible. The other thing I like doing with people is I want you to imagine 65 year old you [00:52:00] because it's very easy to just say like, that's so far off, but I need you to contextualize it.

[00:52:03] Grandma or Nana. Tori is, drinking Savi Blanc with lunch. She is flirting with her much younger Pilates instructor named Luca. She owns property in Italy. She rescues dogs. She's having a great fucking time. That is nana me. And in order for n me to afford that Chardonnay or SAVI Blanc and to be able to take Hot Luca on a trip, she needs to have the money to do that.

[00:52:27] And that doesn't mean that I as 28 year old me don't get to travel and don't get to flirt with my Pilates instructor. Now it just means that I need to also balance and think of her and. Contribute a little bit of money right now so that she can have a kickass retirement that she wants. so again, entire chapter in my book about investing, but this is the number one mistake I see women make is if they do start feeling financially confident, which is amazing, if they do start saving money, they don't take that, that step of investing that is really [00:53:00] incredibly important.

[00:53:00] Um, and is the way we build wealth again, saving, budgeting, paying off debt. Super important. The way you build wealth is through investing. This sounds like such a no-brainer. So why don't women invest? All of those misconceptions I said, right, we're taught that investing's gambling or dangerous or complicated.

[00:53:19] And then all of these platforms are kind of complicated. They use a lot of jargon. If you do ask for help, it's typically, again, like a finance bro named Chad who's gonna mansplain the stock market to you. Or you're like dad's financial advisor named Steve, who's not going to explain things in a way that you understand.

[00:53:36] Right. There's so many things that are keeping women hold, held back from investing. And like I was saying before, it is a staircase. It's very easy to climb. Just that first step is like 20 feet high. So my goal is to really get women to start getting, you know, getting the confidence and the skills they need.

[00:53:53] Me teaching them step by step what they need in order to climb that 20 foot stair so they can just keep investing consistently. [00:54:00] But there's many things in the way. There's many things, and, and again, this is like my not so conspiracy, conspiracy theory is that all of these things are put in place to keep women playing small, right?

[00:54:09] Oh, we start thinking that we should invest. Oh, but we're told it's risky. Oh, we, we overcome that and we log into our investing platform and like all of these graphs and charts and all of the jargon makes no sense. Like it's, it's there for a reason. If they wanted to make it easier, they. Just they're not.

[00:54:26] So I had to, if they wanted to, they would, but they didn't. So it hasn't, The fact that fear and also secondary confusion is what's holding women back from something that is actually not that complicated and not that hard. Once you understand it and not that risky is so infuriating.

[00:54:46] It feels so unfair. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah. There are, you have such tangible, actionable items laid out, not only in your book, but also on your website and, you even have treasury, which will [00:55:00] walk women through this process. Yeah. And it's amazing and I, I just want people listening to know that.

[00:55:06] You totally can do this. And this is a huge step into becoming your own sugar daddy. A hundred percent. Yeah. And I think, there, there were many moments in the writing of my book and really in my work in general, where I felt like I just need to walk into the ocean.

[00:55:20] Like, I was so mad when I would read this stat or like hear this thing like, uh, it's just so infuriating. Like, I didn't expect how many breaks I was gonna need from like, writing, not just because like my brain was dead and I couldn't, I didn't have anything to say, but literally, like I would do research or my research assistant would like show me the stat and I was like, what the fuck is that?

[00:55:40] Like, I could not believe some of these and. That's why it's so important. That's why it's so important to start talking about money, to start becoming more financially confident. Because again, every option opens up to you and we start literally changing the system and the society that exists when, when we do have that freedom and that op all those [00:56:00] options and, yeah.

[00:56:00] It's, it's so angering and so we have to use that anger as fuel for us to say, okay, fuck it. I'm actually gonna learn how to invest. Like, you're barring me from doing this. Too bad. I'm gonna do it anyway. that's something so powerful. It is so powerful. 

[00:56:13] There's such a power that comes from that. Just owning, owning the LS or owning the perceived slights is so empowering and has been in my life. And that's why I started talking about. Sex dating, rejection. I'm like, uh, the thing that I am, the number one expert in unequivocal is rejection. Hmm. I've taken more LS than anyone I know, which I fucking love.

[00:56:35] And that's why I feel like, because like you don't get any opportunities without some rejection too, whether that comes to dating or career or any of that. Right. And it's like so many, again, we've been conditioned to play small, right. To the point where we're like, okay, we just need to sit in our bubble and we just need to do our time and we'll do our work and people will see us.

[00:56:53] And it's like, Nope, they won't, they won't. You have to play big. Right. And that includes, yeah. I can't tell you the amount of times I've reached out to [00:57:00] people and I've gotten rejected. Cannot tell you. But the interesting thing, thing that happens is that rejection is temporary. It is a no, but only for a period of time, or it's a no for a specific reason.

[00:57:10] I was not supposed to get that opportunity. Actually, that opportunity would not have furthered the my goals that I thought they would I have seen so many people, which is so cool. Start to actually like track their rejections and have that be their goal of like, I'm gonna get a hundred rejections this year because that means I'm gonna get five huge yeses.

[00:57:27] Right? Or I'm gonna get 20 opportunities. So like, that's the other thing is do not be afraid of rejection. It means you're playing big and it's also giving you some beautiful stories for a beautiful life lived. Yes. That is another thing. Like, there are things that have hurt my feelings for sure. I've taken some, I, I've been cheated on in absolutely fucking insane ways.

[00:57:48] you know, guys with double lives. I've just kind of, the gamut, I've been told I'm too fat by boyfriends. I've been, you know, just, just fucked up things. But I could write 45 books on the stories [00:58:00] and the lives that I've lived, and at the end of the day, I also wanna be that nana that's drinking wine and getting to kick it with my grandkids and be like, oh, on my day we started eating ass.

[00:58:11] You know what I mean? Like whatever it is, I wanna be able to have these wild stories and have them be like, Nana, you're crazy. And I'm like, yeah, bitch. I'm crazy. Yeah, totally. Okay, this is a hot topic on TikTok and well everywhere. I'm so curious what your take on this is. Do you think men should pay on the first date?

[00:58:29] Ha. I made a joking post about this the other day and people were where I was just like, hi, if you asked me to split the bill or go Dutch on the first date, like we're not having a second date. And people are like, I'm really surprised you had this take. And I was like, TikTok is a joke. Like I'm doing it for the trend guys.

[00:58:45] okay, here's the fun. It is up to you. It is up to how you want to, I, I see it both ways. I see like the equitable thing, right, is to go Dutch. It sometimes for people, it's like whoever asks the date. And then I also see the other side where it's [00:59:00] like, I spent time and energy and money to doll myself up for this date.

[00:59:04] My bra costs. What's this dinner costs you're just gonna have to suck it up and take the elf. here's the thing. Personally and I love telling this story. I am very private about, my dating experience now because I have met somebody and I am very much in love and we've been together for a year.

[00:59:20] And on our first date, he knew what Congrat. I'm jealous. Thank you. Thank you. uh, yeah, I'm very easily Googleable and he had Googled me and figured out who I was. And obviously, you know, uniquely with me is that my net worth is just very public and obviously what I do and, you know, me being, uh, very outwardly like feminist and confident, we had a great first date.

[00:59:43] It was lovely. Check came and he got this look on his face that was kind of like sheepish. And he like, looked down at the check and looked up at me and looked down at the check and looked up at me and I go, what, what's going on in your brain? Talk to me. And he goes, I would really like to pay, but I don't want to [01:00:00] insult you.

[01:00:00] Is it okay if I pay men? Take note of that. Here's, here's the things that happen. One, Showed immediately his emotional intelligence. Two showed he was a good communicator. Three showed that he was willing to be vulnerable, even with basically somebody who was a stranger two hours ago. Right? so incredible.

[01:00:19] He also, it was clear that we were gonna make decisions together, right? Like regardless of whether this went anywhere, right? it was so interesting to see every person is going to feel different. Every woman, every person that goes out on a date is going to feel different about the whole splitting the check versus me buying versus you buying Ask.

[01:00:37] that can be a beautiful, actually like, invitation to have a conversation. And I looked at him and I was so impressed by him, and I said, I'm happy to have you pay. That's really kind of you. Thank you. what a beautiful thing that happened. It's, it's going to be the same thing.

[01:00:50] Like, do you want doors open for you? Is that something that you like? Or do you find that a little condescending, right? Like that's a conversation right? do you, do you think sh Reese great or do you like, Nope, I [01:01:00] got it. Like, that's a conversation. So, yeah, I look back on that and it was just, it was just such a lovely moment.

[01:01:06] And it was also him acknowledging like, I don't know where you're at. Here's what I would like to do. Are you okay with that? And, it was just beautiful. So talk about it. That's amazing. And what I really love about that is if you start that from the beginning, it'll carry through totally towards the end.

[01:01:23] And I think something that really scares me for a lot of women, the divorce rate is 50%. a lot of moms stop working. They become dependent on their husbands, right? And then they end up getting kind of fucked if things go sideways. But what you're talking about is establishing a pattern from the get-go with this romantic partner so that hopefully you get to avoid.

[01:01:49] Being in the dark, that when you're sharing a joint bank account, that when you're talking about having children, it's not just going to be assumed that the woman's going to take care of the [01:02:00] kids or that she's going to continue to work and take care of the kids, or, that the opportunity for her to get cut out financially is as, as high and as common as it is now.

[01:02:11] Yeah, I think that it all comes back to like open and vulnerable conversations. And again, this is like a perfect roundabout for this interview of like, again, we'll have any other conversation with anybody including our romantic partner before we'll talk about money. And, you know, especially with my partner, it's been very clear from the beginning of like, hi, we're gonna talk about money.

[01:02:28] It's almost like a prerequisite of like being my partner, being my friend. Like, we're gonna talk about money. That's, that's gonna be what happens. And I think that, it's probably one of many reasons that I am really proud of the relationships I've built. Like I have a best friend who, we are very vulnerable with each other.

[01:02:44] We've had very difficult conversations, but we always assume positive intent with each other. And we're, we, we talk about a lot, everything, right? Same thing with my partner, same thing with, you know, even our team, right? It's just a beautiful opportunity. If you want more intimacy in your relationships, start [01:03:00] talking about. 

[01:03:00] Why do you think it's important to be your own sugar daddy? I don't wanna rely on anybody and especially not a man. Like, no thank you. No, thank you. I do wanna like rob the patriarchy for all it's worth though.

[01:03:12] so that requires like me, uh, doing everything I can to navigate the system to the best of my ability and to, take care of myself and to ca take care of my communities and then to use that money and that power and that influence to change the world truly. so yeah, I don't wanna be reliant on anybody.

[01:03:29] I joke that I am a money mommy merch incoming, but like money mommy is like what? I, uh, that is me. So I would love to be your money. Oh my mommy, that is so hot. I would love to be your money mommy, and I would love for you to be the money mommy in your own life. Uh, but really it comes down to. Just knowing that you are worthy of opportunity and that you are worthy of love and belonging and also money, and that nobody else needs to, give that to you.

[01:03:56] Nobody else can give that to you except you. And I don't wanna be reliant on [01:04:00] anybody, and especially not a dude, Ugh. Obsessed with you. Okay. what are the three things you would say to start women on their journey to becoming their own sugar daddy?

[01:04:10] Outside of obviously everybody's gotta go get your book, follow your podcast, go to your websites, all of the things. But outside of that, what are the three things that people should do? first is, uh, offer yourself a shit ton of grace at every step of the process. Nobody taught you this, you're gonna fuck up.

[01:04:26] That's okay. It's totally normal. And I need you to offer yourself so much grace. And understanding life is hard. Personal finance is even harder. The system was not built for you. It's okay. offer yourself grace. Second, again, like I was saying before, do one thing, one thing today, right? You're listening to this episode.

[01:04:43] When the episode ends, go do one thing, right? That'll take you less than five minutes. Maybe it's opening up that high yield savings count, right? Maybe it's listening to another podcast about money. Maybe it's just, looking at your bill for the first time in a long time, do one thing to better your money.

[01:04:57] Three. What is so, so powerful, and again, [01:05:00] talk about this in the book in more detail. Automate as much as you can to take the like pressure off you to remember and to like think about it. Automate your bills. Every bill that you can set up on autopay, do it. Automate your savings. Set up an automatic transfer from your check-in account to your savings account.

[01:05:16] That happens without you having to think about it. Pay yourself like you're another bill, right? Pay your emergency fund like it's another bill in order for you to do the hard thing first, right? It'll happen without you having to think about it. So, we don't earn like an extra gold star for making this harder than it has to be.

[01:05:32] Automate everything you possibly can. I would add that your goal is to handle a lot of the other things you can get toward invest. And the next thing I would say is be really mindful of who you're taking financial advice from. Thank you. And be really mindful of how it makes you feel. Because if you are listening to these Hustle and Grind podcasts or these beta bros who wanna be Alpha Dogs Yep.

[01:05:57] Telling you that you're not good enough, that is [01:06:00] not going to help you. Because if I sat here and just made everybody feel bad for the way that they date or the way that they fuck, it's also helping to, breed shame. And it's totally counterintuitive to the goal.

[01:06:12] Yeah. And I think the goal is, freedom. Yeah. It's to feel confident and to be safe in your, in your own power. So just, please be mindful of anybody that wants to yell at you about Bitcoin. Yep. Or just shame you. Right. If like, if something doesn't make you feel good, just don't, don't do it.

[01:06:30] There's other people out there. That's the thing I hear all the time is it's like Dave Ramsey was like, you know, he was, you know, really hard on me, but it worked. And I'm like, there's plenty of other things that work that don't make you want to go die. there's plenty of things out there that, are successful and are effective, but, uh, are not painful along the way.

[01:06:49] So, yeah, a hundred percent. So I end every interview asking people the same thing. And it is, what is the best lover dating advice you've ever [01:07:00] received? Ooh.

[01:07:01] this is for any kind of relationship. One of the things I've really started to learn. And that I appreciate when someone does with me is if I am having a rough go or if someone I love is having a rough go, asking them, what do you need right now? And actually the New York Times, there was a article last week, do you want to be, helped?

[01:07:20] Do you wanna be heard or do you wanna be hugged? And for me it's really like, it's come down to like, do you want a solution or do you just need a rant? Because the amount of times, like I have tried to, help somebody, right? I've tried to provide them advice and guidance to just like fix their problem doesn't help.

[01:07:34] It doesn't help. That person's not coming to me for that in that moment. Right. Or maybe the person is, this is the sixth time coming to me and they actually do need that advice, but I need to ask them. Right. Helped heard or hugged, which is like, I, I love the, like alliteration always, but like obviously, do you want me to help you?

[01:07:49] Do you want me to just hear you? Do you just need to talk or do you want me to just hold you and you don't need to say anything and we just, we just need to be present with each other right now. that's been so helpful when people have done it to me. And it's something [01:08:00] that I really try to do because I typically do go into action mode.

[01:08:03] I go into like, okay, I, I hate to see you in pain. Let me fix your problem. And like, that's not often not what people are coming to me for. am the same way. I got that from my mom. And what is so crazy is every time you say things, I know that was you giving love and dating advice, but then I heard the chapter in your book where, You get to talking about getting to the heart of the emotional people's emotional issues with money and how that helped you realize that there's this whole other thing that we need to address before we get into the nuts and and bolts of actually automating and saving and investing and all of that.

[01:08:38] And Oh gosh. It's just so wild that love and sex and money and finance is just, it's like intertwined. Yeah. Every metaphor that works for dating works for money and vice versa. Like every single one. Which is why I am so grateful that you did this podcast.

[01:08:55] Truly like I. I mean, this is just like a stand episode now, I guess. [01:09:00] But I think thank you for having me. And you've had some killer guests we'll have to talk about. 

[01:09:03] You've had some fucking powerhouse guests, so thanks for having me. Well, I, that's why I had to get you, I had to get you right in there because you are a powerhouse guest. So if people would like to find you, you'll be linked down below in the show notes, but where should people find you?

[01:09:18] Thank you for just hyping me up this, I'm gonna go lift a car after this. Her first hundred k.com is where you can find me or at her first hundred k on all the socials. I host a financial feminist podcast and I wrote Financial Feminists the book, and it's available wherever you get your books, including in target stores, which is very thrilling as an author.

[01:09:34] If you are, offered the shelf space of target, that's a very big win. So, yeah, available wherever you get your books. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining.

[01:09:42] Hey guys, before you leave, I just wanted to remind you if you have a dating horror story or a crazy cringy crime that you would love to share, I would obviously love to hear it. You can reach me via email or via voice message at my website, which is linked below in the show notes. and if you wanna be [01:10:00] considered for future giveaways, don't forget, join the email list. Thanks again for listening, and see you next Tuesday